Strange Fire
Well, this is certainly good news for the church. All across the United States, our young people are giving Glory to the Most High as they "Crunk" it up for Christ. In fact, many churches have set-up Christian Youth "Crunk" Ministries to encourage our children in this awesome move of God. If you haven't seen it, then you sure have missed out as our young people's bodies twitch, convulse, and jerk to music. It is like watching a Holy Spirit-inspired Epileptic fit!
A few of these insane asylums....oops, I mean "churches" have the following to say:
"Crunk 4 Christ is to have an uncontrollable enthusiastic praise for Christ that demands a response of his power and Glory. Crunk 4 Christ (known as C4C) is a youth outreach project...[it] serves as a venue for unconventional methods of praise and worship promoted by Youth and Young Adults. "
Even Catholics are getting Crunk, "Speaking to a radio audience every Monday on Q100-FM, he [Father Ricardo Bailey] is known as Father Crunk, a play on the urban term for high energy hip-hop and high-energy people. “Do you have any idea what ‘revive’ means?” he asked the audience. “Revive, my dear friends in Christ, … means get crunk with Jesus.”"\
The Fire House's (appropriately named) dance ministry mission is, "To Preach the Gospel through DANCE and Win Souls to Christ. Also, mentor the youth and let them know you can still get crunk and dance for the LORD."
Can we still get crunk and dance for the Lord? Does the Bible indicate that we can offer whatever we want to the Lord and He will just accept it?
"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." Leviticus 10:1-2
The nation of Israel was celebrating the dedication of the temple. God gave specific instructions about how they were to worship before, and offer sacrifices unto, Him there. Leviticus 9:6 says, "And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the LORD shall appear unto you."
They did as God instructed. God's Glory appeared. Holy fire came forth to consume the sacrificial offering. The people shouted for joy and bowed down in worship before their awesome God. However, Nadab & Abihu's took it upon themselves to step up and make their own offering to God, one He had not commanded.
Immediately after they were killed, Moses says to Aaron, "This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace." Leviticus 10:3
At this statement, Aaron could not question God's judgment; he held his peace.
Why were Aaron's sons killed? Because the worship God commanded required that His Holiness and His Glory be at the forefront. The whole congregation was bowed down in submission to, and out of respect for, God. Yet Aaron's sons - driven by self-interest and a desire to be exalted and seen - decided to approach God's altar with their own version of a sacrifice. They were not led by God's Spirit, who was calling the people unto reverence. They were led by an opposing spirit which had them at odds with God. The difference? The sincere worship was glorfying God while the false worship was glorifying self.
Who is being glorified when our children get "Crunk"? In case you do not know, getting "Crunk" refers to someone becoming extremely excitable and crazy by using a combination of drugs and alcohol. They get crazy drunk, i.e. Chronic (marijuana) + Drunk (or Crack + Drunk, Coke + Drunk, etc.) = Crunk.
Sadly, a number of these ministries use Ephesians 5:18 as a justification which says, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit." I am sure that Jesus Christ, who was filled with the Spirit beyond measure, was a Crunking All-Star. Can't you just picture Him now, having a Crunk-Off with the Apostles?
Why would a church use such a worldly term to define a youth ministry? Well true to form, they have simply taken what the world was doing, slapped it on an altar, said this was being done as unto the Lord, and now everything is "all good". Nevermind that the so-called pioneer of "Crunk", a rapper named Lil Jon, says that he was inspired to create this genre based on his experiences in Atlanta strip clubs (New York Times Interview, November 28, 2004). Gives a whole new meaning to the term Harlot Church.
The worse thing about this is not just that the youth are bringing demonic practices into the church, but that the "leadership" is encouraging their demise. Embedded below is a perfect example of this idiocy.
UPDATE: The poster of this video has now disabled embedding. Guess they don't want this foolishness exposed. So until I can find a copy which is available to post, here is a link directly to it
And here is another example of this idiocy.
This "song" is performed by someone named Lecrae and is called "Represent". The chorus starts off with:
Represent! Get Crunk! Represent! Get Crunk! If you know you're repping Jesus go ahead and throw it up.
Throw up what? My lunch? Because that is how nauseating it is to look at this. What is it that makes man think he can improve on what God has done? We have entire churches rejoicing over new and improved ways to draw people to Christ, that are more about entertaining the flesh than glorifying Jesus.
"Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Philippians 3:17-19
These are the enemies of the cross. They do not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" Matthew 16:24 No, they say. Telling people about Jesus, about God's love, and how He has given His life to save us from our sins is just not crunk enough to attract the younger crowds. God just didn't understand that these generations would need something more than the Gospel to come to Him.
Let's get this out in the open. We are not talking about being holier than thou or not being able to relate to people (of all ages). We are talking about not downgrading the Gospel. Not trying to sanctify the filth of the world. Not being used as a tool of Satan to bind our young people under the guise of witnessing.
This is beyond simply being foolish and silly. It is no small thing to teach prospective or young Christians that they can take the debase things of the world and continue in them as an offering to God. A friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Even the world is mocking the church! In a secular article entitled, "A New Form of Worship", one young blogger had this to say:
"Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "crunk" a combination of getting [messed up] and drunk? Seriously. Talk about missing the point. I guess we'll all get stoned, grab a 40 and head to church. This got me to thinking, though. Were churches latching onto other trends before this? Were they all "getting grunge for God" in the early '90s? Were the "jump, jivin' and wailin' for Jesus" during that 6 months when swing made a comeback in '97? "Discoing for the divine savior" in the late '70s? I'm just curious, here.
There are lots of possibilities that don't even need to apply to churches and music. Especially in a religious town like this. Need to drum up some traffic for your clinic? "Liposuction for the Lord!" After all, Jesus had much better abs than Buddha, now, didn't he?"
Even this young man can see that there are some things which are just not appropriate in church. He has the audacity to accuse church leadership of pimping the people in order to increase numbers...and he is absolutely right!
Look at how your "youth ministry" witness is being perceived by the very people you claim you want to reach. Now when the world starts calling the church worldly, we really have a problem. It is a shame when the people outside of the church understand the things of God more than those inside.
I would really be interested in hearing from these so called ministries. How does Crunking prepare the youth to live for Christ and be witnesses for Him? How does it bring someone to repentance and convict them about the need for Jesus as their Savior? How does it teach Christians about Godly living and maturing in the faith? What happens when you take the spirit of whoredoms and bring it into your church?
"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." I Corinthians 6:16-17
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Galatians 5:22-25
Keep up the good work sister!
ReplyDeleteHi and enjoyed your post. I also read your Sasha Fierce post, very informative. I knew there was something wrong with creating an "alter ego" anyway.
ReplyDeleteI just thought that I'd add some information I found on the web about Krump and Crunk. I wonder if some churches are confusiong the two slang terms, apparently they mean different things.
Krump (n) – An aggressive, emotional, and spiritual style of dance known for cutting edge dance moves and intense interactions between performers and spectators. Krumping emerged from South Central Los Angeles in 2000 as a way for dancers to express emotions and different aspects of their personalities as well as a way to cope with the stresses and pressures of everyday life in a constructive manner. In Krumping, a dancer tells a story through the voice of his or her “character” while attempting to advance through three levels of intensity (Krump, Buck, Amp). A dancer mayexpress his or herself in any way, just as long as it is authentic and organic. In Krump, there is no right or wrong way to express one’s self. It is an art form owned by feelings, not words or rules.
http://www.krumpkings.com/krumptionary/krump
History
Krump is similar in form and practice to traditional weapon dances, and for this reason is considered by many African-American krumpers to be symbolic of, or referential to, their tribal roots. Dance "battling," a form of dance where competitors face-off in a direct and aggressive competition, is an integral component of krump in a similar way to the earlier breakdance battles with "dissing" (mocking), and heightened moments of frantic, aggressive arm and chest movements (known as "buck" moves) being common. "Buck" is when internal artistry meets physical expression as per Lil C. Now in the documentary "Rize" Tommy The Clown is the one who is accredited with creating Krump and some of his first dancers were Tight Eyez & Darryl.
[edit] Christian element
For many participants there is a strong Christian spiritual element to the dance.
"Tight Eyez", a key early figure and now krump teacher, regularly speaks of Christian healing and gives praise to Jesus for the upbringing of this movement. The backronym "Kingdom Radically Uplifting Mighty Praise" is now often used by him, and this usage has spread widely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krump
Traditionally, crunk meant a hoarse, harsh cry.[3] The term is often used as slang to mean intoxicated. Folk etymology suggests the modern usage of crunk originated as a portmanteau of the words "crazy" and "drunk" or having been "cranked up" to a level of excitability at which one becomes "crunk". But it is most accurately defined as being drunk and high at the same time, however Rapper Lil Jon defined crunk as a "state of heightened excitement" to make it sound like a more commercial feeling.
The first popular figures to use the word were Atlanta rappers Outkast, who in their 1993 song and accompanying video "Player's Ball" said, "I gots in crunk if it ain't real ain't right". Outkast also mentions "crunk" in the song "Hootie Hoo" (which was released in 1994 on the same album Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik).
Webster's Dictionary defines "crunk" as a "word of fluctuating meaning used during the 1990s in lyrics of the rap groups OutKast and Lil Jon & The East Side Boyz, a style of Southern rap music featuring repetitive chants and rapid dance rhythms."[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crunk
Thanks
This was well sumamrized, but does this mean that other songs by Lecrae, such as Desperate, are wrong to listen to, as a born-again christian youth? Can God not be glorified through christian rap? What about christian contemporary? where can the line of discernment be drawn in what types of music that children of God listen to?
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for your informative post! Let's look at this all from a Christian perspective for a minute.
The similarities between the names and the dance styles seem to be sufficient enough to imply that "Krunk" is a derivative of "Crunk"; especially since "Crunk" was the earlier of the two dance forms. Hopefully the article sets forth why it would be inappropriate to use this term in reference to church activity.
But let's look at "Krunk." Is there any real difference?
Krunk is "aggressive". Does Christ call us to be aggressive with each other? In Matthew 5:39-48, Jesus speaks of loving even our enemies.
It is "emotional". In Christ, we are to be a new creature and old things have passed away. This doesn't mean we do not have emotions, but that we are not "emotional". We are not ruled by our emotions, but our emotions are ruled by the Spirit of God. This is how we can love our enemies, how we can have peace in the midst fo the storm, etc.
Krunk is "spiritual"? Then I would have to ask what spirit it is of. The fruit of the Spirit (or the evidence of the Spirit in operation) is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Are these the attributes exhibited by this dance?
When we have stress or pressure, Jesus tells us to turn our burdens over to Him. Should we direct people to Krunk or to Christ to lift our burdens?
It is similar to weapons dances found in African tribes? Do you realize that individuals in those type of dances were representing their various gods? Before the dance was even to begin, they would paint/decorate their faces and bodies in dedication to their god. Then the confrontation or dance was actually a battle to see which god was stronger.
Further, God has something to say about our weapons. The weapons of our warfare are NOT of this world. Yes, Christians are to fight and engage in battle, but ours is a spiritual war.
Being a Christian is more than just claiming a belief in Jesus. The veracity of that affirmation and one's growth in the faith is seen by our witness. You shall know them by their fruit.
If I claim faith in Christ while I am shacking up with my boyfriend, then my witness is compromised. How effective is my testimony in Christ if the evidence of my life is still worldly? I am not talking about trying to be religious or act a certain way. I am talking about being truly born again.
Even as I evaluate "Krump", I don't find much that distinguishes it from "Crunk". I certainly don't see the fruit to declare this as a move of the Holy Spirit.
This info has been so helpful, but I think it shows itself to also be more "of the world" than of Christ.
God Bless!
Hi Tinuke,
ReplyDeleteI recently saw a video of Lecrae as he witnessed to other Christian youth. He certainly seemed heartfelt, but also seemed in need of spiritual counsel. What I mean is that it is wonderful to be on fire for the Lord. Yet, the Scriptures indicate that those young in the faith may go off into error and pride without proper oversight. "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Hebrews 5:14
Notice that maturity in the faith is achieved as we are able to discern good from evil. We are told to test the spirits to see if they are of God. Having a lot of emotion about God does not mean we have the proper moorings to know what is Godly. I am not saying that Lecrae is insincere; I am saying that he is misguided. The spirit he has on display is that of the world, not of God. That doesn't mean he doesn't love the Lord. It means that he (like every Christian) must grow up in the Lord to know good from evil. Until then, he should not be teaching others because then he winds up just leading them into error as well. Having a sincere witness is not the sole qualification for teaching.
God tells us that we will sing a new song in Him. He didn't say we would simply sing the old songs and just change the words around. :-) This is the biggest delusion from ministries that prop up these young people in the hopes of drawing in big numbers (and big money). They are failing to teach young people the true essentials of the faith; the essentials they need to endure against that which the devil will bring against them. This leaves them vunerable to being led astray. Instead, they encourage them to bring in their old ways from the world and call it Christ. This principle contradicts the very essence of the new birth experience.
So, how do we know the difference? It is by the spirit behind the song. Songs that glorify God are true praise and worship. When the song plays, does it immediately usher you into the presence of God and focus your mind on Him? Who is on display, God or man? There are some songs that immediately take you back to the mindset of the club. You can even tell by the way you respond to the song that God is the last one you are thinking of.
There is an excitement that can come from the flesh and one that can come from the Spirit. As the Scripture says, it is through growing up in the faith that we are able to understand the difference.
Don't become legalistic or bound by it. Just ask God to lead you to music that HE likes. Ask Him to give you knowledge of what pleases Him...and do that. :-)
I believe that when one sees an article like this, or an entry like this - since there is a comment board, we'd be allowed to speak our mind.
ReplyDeleteI am a little bit for and a little bit against what it says.
For one thing, "crunking" or what ever you call it, is as I have understood it a way to adress the way they are dancing. But if you are able to use dancing as a form of worship to God what is wrong with it?
If someone can sing and is praising God with their singing, what is wrong with that?
God has given every individual a talent they can use for him. So instead of a person throwing away their ability to worship God with doing all sort of nonsense, they are hailing God with dancing. Now if that's not good, I don't know what is.
Besides, we can not compare "crunking" to rolling up weed and drinking and clubbing. If a girl came to dance ballet in church for God, I am sure no one would have said anything.
God is the one judging,
and I am sure in ecclesiastes he said we are to be young and merry while we are youths, and to do what our hearts desire but know that judgement comes after. So if we can praise him with our talents, I don't see anything wrong with it.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't have anything against people praising God in their own special ways, by contributing either with music or dancing.
In order for people to come to church you must first humble yourself. We are not trying to get worldly here, but to reach out to the world. God can work through music and dancing just the same.
besides, there is also something called being drunk in the spirit. Being so excited for God that you have no manner at all, and do not care anymore what the world has to say about you. Where it all comes down to you and God.
ReplyDeleteI've said mine, now you
guys say yours
Hello ur kinda girl,
ReplyDeleteNo one said that "dancing" cannot be done as a form of worship to God. In fact, I have led many a Christian Praise dance teams.
The problem your post assumes is that God just accepts anything man wants to offer as "worship." This is simply not true.
Dance ballet? Is "ballet" a word that means violent clubbing and drug abuse?
Do you want to provide the quote for the reference you offer in Ecclesiastes? I am sure a review of the actual text will show you that it does not give the type of license you suggest.
You state what you find acceptable. What about what God finds acceptable? Does that matter?
Where also do you find these Scriptural references for being "drunk in the spirit" as you say?
If you are wondering where I found God saying you must do what ever your heart desires while you are young, but for all things there is judgement.
ReplyDeleteLook up :
Ecclesiastes 11:7-9 (you may also read unto verse 10 if you please)
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When it comes to being "Drunk in the Spirit": it means being overwhelmed by the Spirit. So overwhelmed that your behaviour is mistaken for being drunk.
A few examples are:
In 1 Sammuel 1, when Elkanah and his barren wife Hannah went to offer sacrifices, and she was praying for a son, and committing him to the Lord.
“As she continued praying before the LORD, Eli observed her mouth.
Hannah was speaking in her heart; only her lips moved, and her voice was not heard. Therefore Eli took her to be a drunken woman.
And Eli said to her, “How long will you go on being drunk? Put away your wine from you.”
But Hannah answered, “No, my lord, I am a woman troubled in spirit. I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have been pouring out my soul before the LORD.
Do not regard your servant as a worthless woman, for all along I have been speaking out of my great anxiety and vexation.” 1 Samuel 1: 12-16
Also when David son of Jesse, in 2 Samuel 6:14-16.
In other translations, it is mentioned that David danced and was almost stripped off his clothes because of his dancing so uncontrollable - making people think he was drunk.
He was only overwhelmed by the Spirit.
"Truly the light is sweet, and a pleasant thing it is for the eyes to behold the sun: But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity. Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity." Ecclesiastes 11:7-10
ReplyDeleteIf you read the text in context, you will see that it does not say what you implied.
God does not say, "we are to be young and merry while we are youths, and to do what our hearts desire..."
Nor does He say, "you must do what ever your heart desires while you are young".
This is a warning to those who are young not to do what you suggest because they will be judged.
God is being facetious here. That is why He continues in the same sentence to say, "but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment".
Would God encourage young people do to things that He knows He will judge them for? No. His desire is that all will be saved.
That is why the very next sentence says, "Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity."
According to you, God is saying that young people should or must indulge the flesh. Yet, this is the exact opposite of the counsel God has given. He is saying, "Because you know you will be judged for these things, put them away from you and don't so them. Don't think I will excuse you just because you are young because youth is vanity."
Youth is not an excuse to be foolish, and neither does God treat it as such.
The verses about Hannah have nothing to do with being "drunk in the spirit." The text says quite clearly why she was thought to be drunk and it was not because she was acting uncontrollably. It was because the priest saw her lips moving but no words coming out because she was praying in her heart.
Regarding David, nowhere does it say that he was taken as being "drunk". In fact, it would have been a disgrace for him to even appear to be drunk given the occasion of having the ark (which symbolized the presence of God) returned.
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart." 2 Samuel 6:14-16
Now, which translation is it that you say implies David was almost stripping and the people thought he was drunk? I know of none such translation.
Clearly. You seem to know a lot more than I do.
ReplyDeleteI guess people fail to read in-between the lines when they are reading the bible, but also people interpret things differently.
But through the Holy Spirit, things are easier to understand when one is reading the bible.
I still have a lot to learn, but
because you know all these things, does not make you wiser. We are all learning everyday.
And as David danced with all his might, his clothes would have been coming off as in those days they usually wore robes.
In all we do, we pray for better understanding. So in no way am I trying to offend you. I'm just speaking my mind.
It would be nice if you posted something about MaryMary or Kirk Franklin.
Hi Ur Kind of Girl,
ReplyDeleteNo, no, not at all. Knowledge doesn't go for much, but puffing up. I don't mean to give that impression at all and I apologize if I did. We all are learning more about God and the awesome thing is that you too are seeking to know Him more, as I am. In the end, God will want to know that you put your heart and life in His hands. He doesn't care how much we think we know, because we know nothing comparatively. :-)
My point is only that we must make every effort to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Otherwise, we can wind up misunderstanding who God is and how He wants us to serve Him.
I DO believe in the power of the Holy Spirit in one's life and have experienced that personally. I just think the "drunk in the spirit" phrase can be used to cover a lot of ills. And I am not sure the use of that phrase is always Biblical.
Mary Mary & Kirk Franklin? I will certainly pray on it. They are both worldly entertainers, lots of compromise. Take that "God in Me' song my Mary Mary. The whole song glorifies money and fame. Even look to see who is in the video. Once we start clamoring to be accepted by the world, we will fall into a trap of Satan.
Christians in general need to be comfortable being rejected by the world for even God says that they will reject us as they did Him.
Nonetheless, I wish you much love and peace in Christ Jesus. I appreciate your sharing your feedback here and want you to know you are always welcome - whether we agree on an issue or not.
Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the work you are doing, and pray that God continues to bless your ministry.
Breakdancing/Hiphop is part of our culture. If our culture is considered worldly, and we are not to be a part of it, does God make certain rules in how we are to praise Him? What about drums, are we allowed to use those? Maybe just cymbals?
ReplyDeleteGetting crunk is pretty much related with having a good time. LeCrae's lyrics "Represent, Get Krunk/Crunk" are about reppin' Jesus, doing it with all your heart, doing it because you enjoy doing it. Another line in the song says "Cause you love the Lord and His habit of salvation, repping like Steven, Getting stoned for the stone you believe in". It's like going all out, souled out for Jesus.
I think that not only is there a cultural difference between you and the 'insane asylums' that do this, but there is most likely a generational difference. I can't expect you to understand my generation's desire to praise God our way, not through hymns or 'contemporary worship', but using OUR culture, our way of life and giving it up to God. I had to go and look up the verses you quoted in my NIV Bible because I couldn't understand them in Old English. What about tribal converts in Africa, people that are used to dancing and telling stories through dance? Once they become converts, are they supposed to sit down and praise God in hymns translated into their language, to a piano? No! They praise God in the way fitting to their culture, by drum beats and dancing! Christianity doesn't have it's own culture, it is CROSS-cultural!
You may not like the word crunk, and I don't blame you. It does have negative connotations. But it is possible to change words' meanings. I could give you a list of words as an example, but while you may consider them crude/impolite, 20-50 years ago you wouldn't have thought so. Who are you to judge what is 'right' and 'wrong' in the eyes of the Lord? As for calling them enemies of the cross, I personally take offense at that. I myself enjoy listening and working to the music of LeCrae. I may not dance to it, but I don't blame those who do have the talents to do so for wanting to use them for Jesus. How can you know what is truly in their hearts as they dance?
What I'm trying to say, through all of this rambling, is that you are too quick to judge that which is not of your culture, not of your way of living. I would encourage you to also seek out GOOD things youth and their leaders are doing, to encourage them. Do not openly condemn that which you do not fully understand. Encourage. Lift up. And 'throw it up' (be willing to represent) for Jesus!
Hi Joy,
ReplyDeleteI think your comments are heart-felt and I can understand what you are saying.
The problem I see, however, is that you seem to think that praising God is something that you, I, or any generation can define. It isn't. We do not define what is acceptable to God. He defines what is acceptable.
God does not just accept anything we give Him as praise. It has to come from a pure heart. It has to be pleasing in His sight. It has to be a reflection of His holiness. It has to reverence Him.
This is not about a generation gap, but a gap for many in understanding who God is and appreciating His holiness and power. God does not have to understand our "culture". He is the same no matter what worldly trends are in vogue; He changes not.
Examine how the Scriptures speak of praise. Then honestly think about whether "getting crunk" fits the guidance God gives us about how we should praise Him.
Take Psalm 66:2 for example:
"Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious."
The word "glorious" here means: honour, reverence, dignity. Is "crunking" honorable? Reverential? Dignified?
Look, we are not trying to be legalistic here. And you are right that each generation is somewhat different. But the bottom line is that we must look to God to see what He thinks, what He likes, what He wants, and what He says.
He does not give us the liberty of saying, "I will do what I feel in my heart and that will be pleasing to God." The Bible says the heart is desperately wicked. The measure for what is Godly is not what we think, what we feel, or how we feel...it is what saith the Lord.
One more thing Joy. When I speak of distinguishing between true praise and worldly manifestations, I am not talking about trying to be or act "holy" by outward works. I am not speaking of covering your body from head to toe, keeping your head bowed down, praying all loud, etc. I am speaking of the spirit behind the praise.
ReplyDeleteGod is a spirit and those who worship do so in spirit and in truth. The spirit behind true praise is glorious, reverential, holy because it is a reflection of God being lifted up. This is not the spirit behind "getting crunk".
You acknowledge yourself where this word comes from and what it means. You say it has negative connotations. But what, I ask you, is the spirit it carries? What spirit - which comes from the strip clubs and glorifies drugs and violence - can then be used as a means of giving praise to God?
Everything is not this surface innocent thing that the world would have us to believe. To know God is to understand that there is a spiritual battle underway. We are to know no man after the flesh, but to discern the spiritual things whether they be of God.
Was David "dignified" when he danced? Also, the Leviticus 10 passage you quoted does not mean what you think it does. The offering they were performing was the High Priest's duty, and took place in the Holy Of Holies. God sent down fire, because they had disobeyed his commands, and not because they had done something he hadn't commented on either way. It's not about the offering, but it is about the heart that is giving it. These people are using modern culture to spread the gospel and awaken passion for God in youth, so how can you condemn them for how they minister from your point of view any more than they can condemn how you minister for being passionless from their point of view.
Delete"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, WHICH HE COMMANDED THEM NOT. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." Leviticus 10:1-2
DeleteThe Scripture is quite clear about why God was angered in Leviticus 10. It is not what you say.
You have clearly stated your opinions. I would rather establish my faith on the word of God.
I have to say,you're doing a good job. But I disagree with you one certain things. You yourself says God judges the intentions of the heart. The Bible affirms it, I believe it, that does it. I'm from Nigeria. If the only way I knew to dance before I got saved was the way us Igbos dance, what's wrong if i dance the ssame way, HAVING THE MIND OF PRAISING AND WORSHIPPING GOD?
ReplyDeleteI dont think what Not Ur Kinda Gurl was saying about man worshipping God however he WANTS to. She must've meant - forgive me for being presumptious - that you praise God with what you have, the best way you know how... and God loves it because it's from A SINCERE HEART!
You talk about how crumping is violent. It looks violent, sure, but do you know what is IN the dancer's heart? When people fall and roll about under the power of the Holy Spirit, would you then say that it is NOT the spirit of God operating because "all that falling about seems so violent?"
One last thing... the fact is, there's a large number of youth unsaved, who are being won to Christ BECAUSE of such dance ministrations, expecially where there's a message attached to it. The Lord uses dance. Just because a kinda dance was once used to the glory of the world does not mean a convert cannot use it to the glory of God... except for all the lewd provocative stuff, anyways. Satan once used to head up music... does that now mean I mustnot sing to the glory of God too?
Im not trying to start up beef here, I'm seeking the Truth like you, I have the Holy Spirit like you, and when He tells me something ain't right, it ain't and I drop it. Just check out 2 Samuel 6:20. Lemme know what you think of that. I have the NIV version, btw. Thanx... And I should add, you're doing a great job. Grace and peace to you from God. Amen!!!
HI Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWhat does the following mean to you?
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Corinthians 5:17
The question is not whether God looks at the heart. He does. The question is whether what resides in the heart is of the Lord or not. If everything we did before was acceptable to God, then there would be no need for us to have to be washed and made new. Only dirty things are washed.
In terms of the Holy Spirit moving, when does the Holy Spirit moving begin and demonstration of demonic activity begin? The Holy Spirit can fall on someone, but is their behavior the result of Holy Spirit inspiration or the reaction of demons to the presence of the Holy Spirit?
Yes, there are seeing spiritual manifestations, but don't assume that the inspirations behind those manifestations are always the Holy Ghost. Even when the Holy Spirit is moving, demons can react. With the possessed boy described in Scripture, it is the presence of the Holy Spirit which was being reacted to, but it was the demon which actually threw the boy to the ground (Mark 9:20-26).
Again, the important thing is what spirit is inspiring the behavior.
Scripture says, "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12
The spiritual war we fight is violent, and God equips us as His battle ax.
The review of getting Crunk was not because it is "violent", but because of what it glorifies, i.e. getting crazy drunk and messed up in order to be violent.
This is not about dance ministries. I have led many a dance ministry in my years with the Lord and dance can certainly be used to glorify Him. However, do not be misled into thinking that just because this is what you have known, that makes it acceptable to God. That is not the expectation He lays out for us in Scripture.
It is not, bring to me what you have known and make it an offering. It is give your lives as an offering and He will make you new, with old things passing away. If there was nothing wrong with our old things we knew in the world, there would be no reason for God to make this distinction.
"Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!" II Samuel 6:20
Examine Michal's concern. She was not concerned about how David was glorifying the Lord. She was concerned about how he might appear to the handmaidens. She was jealous. Yet David by his own words was lowering himself in humility before the Lord. Showing himself to be nothing so in comparison to the glory of the Lord.
Is this what you say crunking represents? Is it a type of humility or self-exaltation? Does glorify God by placing all emphasis on Him, or does it cause one to glorify one's self and one's own abilities?
God does not call us to bring the things of the world and lay them at His feet. He calls us into newness of life as we separate from those things which defile.
I appreciate your comments and trust that God's Spirit will continue to lead us both as we follow - whether we agree in this matter or not.
God Bless!
Okay so I didn't really read a lot of this i kinda skimmed and a lot of poeple are saying some good things I just wanna throw out a couple things I saw.
ReplyDeleteFirst in the main article i saw, "Even the world is mocking the church! "
It was said in way like it was bad. Heck yea the world should be mocking the church or we are prolly doing something wrong.
John 15:18-20
If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.
Acts 5:40-42
So they took his advice, 40and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. 42And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
So if the world is mocking these people its probably more of a good thing than a bad.
2nd thing in one comment i saw something about how worship was supposed to be dignified. And the heart of the comment was good we are to honor God and regard him as holy. But we are also called to love him and to praise him with joy. In 2 Samuel David showed us how to praise God by becoming undignified. Because when we look like a fool in the eyes of men for God, God is pleased. And yes David when he danced was stripped of the majority of his garments if you read the whole passage carefully and it was in front of a whole lot of poeple and therefore would have seemed disrespectful for the king of all Isreal to do so, but David was a man after Gods own heart (thats in acts somewhere) that he didn't care.
2 Samuel 6: 14-23
4 Then David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. 15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 Now as the ark of the LORD came into the City of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David leaping and whirling before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. 17 So they brought the ark of the LORD, and set it in its place in the midst of the tabernacle that David had erected for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 18 And when David had finished offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. 19 Then he distributed among all the people, among the whole multitude of Israel, both the women and the men, to everyone a loaf of bread, a piece of meat, and a cake of raisins. So all the people departed, everyone to his house.
20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, “How glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the maids of his servants, as one of the base fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!”
21 So David said to Michal, “It was before the LORD, who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel. Therefore I will play music before the LORD. 22 And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor.”
23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
(.cont on next post)
So i'll prolly never be on this board again but i came across it and had to put in my 2 cents. I love to worship God iwth dancing. And not with organized praise team dancing how super lame is that. But i love just pouring out my heart to my God and to tell him that i love him so much that i will look like a fool in the worlds eyes to praise him. And well i may not neccessarily agree with using the actual term crunk for christ or getting drunk in the spirit, the ideas that people are using them for are legit. If people want to praise God iwth dance, let them. As long as the dance itself isn't provacative, and they are doing it to praise God, God is pleased. If poeple wanna praise God with hymns, God is pleased, if people wanna praise God with heavy metal screamo (i've done this too) let em. God is universal and created us all with so much diversity. If the creation is this diverse how much more diverse must the creator be and we can't all worship God the same way becasue we were all created differently. God cares about the heart (which i think you get cuz it was said somewhere above) and it is not for us to judge how people worship God that is only for God. If people are worhsipping God in a way that is passionate and from the heart, honoring to God and is not causing the people around them to fall into sin, then yes music that sounds like its from a club can totally be used. Also don't be to quick to judge Lacrae, he's breaking ground no one in the church has dared to before. Paul said we must contextualize the gospel.
ReplyDeleteFor though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
1 Corinthians 9:19-22
Lacrea is becoming like the "crunk" to reach the "crunk" or however you wanna word it.
Anyway that's all i got God bless!
Hello Lotrcolts,
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should do more than just skim the article, for a lot of what you say has already been addressed.
You seem to think - like many - that praising God is about what you like. It is not. It is about what GOD likes.
Our sacrifices - even the sacrifice of praise - must be pleasing and acceptable in His sight.
It is interesting that you use a Scripture which speaks against being like the world to promote being like the world...for that is what Crunk is. It is of the world, born of the world, created by the world, and manifested from the world.
Again, you need to read the article if you want to understand what is said. The world was mocking the church not because the church was standing for the name of Jesus. But because the church was being worldly and hypocritical while professing to stand for Jesus.
Because when we look like a fool in the eyes of men for God, God is pleased. Where do you get these things??? The Scriptures say that there is another Jesus, another spirit, and another Gospel that draws men away from God through false doctrine even while they profess to serve Him. Please study the Scriptures to know what God's word says for yourself. Don't just follow men's interpretations, for the things you say are incorrect here.
"Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish." Psalms 39:8
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." I Corinthians 1:20-21
It is never presented as a good thing to be a fool outside of the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Gospel message which is considered foolish by the world so that it will not appeal to those who think themselves to be wise.
If you think that God is pleased by the world making fun of Jesus Christ because those who represent Him are seen as hypocrites, then you are misled.
Again, we are not speaking against dance ministry. However, we are speaking against the mindset that people can just do what they want before God and He somehow finds that acceptable. Such is false.
If people are worhsipping God in a way that is passionate and from the heart, honoring to God and is not causing the people around them to fall into sin, then yes music that sounds like its from a club can totally be used....Lacrea is becoming like the "crunk" to reach the "crunk" or however you wanna word it.
And this type of statement is exactly why we wrote this article. It displays a lack of understanding about the spiritual influences behind the things in which you partake.
You seem very sincere, and I would encourage you to really seek the Lord's views on this point and not simply try to justify what you feel is okay in His eyes. God doesn't just accept anything we call worship because only those things birthed from His Holy Spirit are recognized by Him. He will not accept the spirits of pharmekeia.
May God bless your walk with Him as you follow.
Hello! first of all,let me say that i absolutely love the way you see things.Its quite refreshing to have a believer's view on matters in the world.Ive recommneded youjr site to a few friends of mine and my family especially those who love secular music.I found this post in particular interesting because only yesterday,i was discussing with a friend of mine about the kind of music that would be good to dance to.before i became born again,i was a dancer.dancing was my life literally and i couldnt go a day without dancing.I had tapes and cds of upbeat songs for dance.But after i was saved,i didnt feel comfortable dancing to those songs again.I began looking for christian songs to listen to.Ive replaced all my secular music collectin with christian rock..i love rock music and its made a remarkable change in my life.But im still in a bit of dilema concerning dance music.can i dance to songs that have clean lyrics? i used to dance to hip pop songs,rap and r n b songs.ciara adn janet jackson kinnda dance.but now,i dotn know what kind of christian songs to replace them with.it really bothered me then that i stopped dancing and as a result,gained weight.I used dancing a a way to control my weight.It made me resent God untill i understood that serving God is about doing what he wants and when i do what he wants,it works out for my good.I would really liek to know your thoughts on this.and also,can you recommned some christian artists i can dance to?rap? hip pop and street kinnda songs? You'd be doing me a huge favor believe me.concerning this post,i totally agree with you.While the intentions of those involved in crunking may be pire,they have to sak themselves if they are dong what God wants them to do? because at the end of the day,its what God wants.thank you and keep up the good work...ps..your post on twilight made me very wary of the movie.I read your post before i watched the movie and i saw what you meant.May God keep his flow of wisdom strong in you.Amen
ReplyDeleteI would like to comment not on the article but on the comments that I have read. What we need to realize people of God (as Latter Days has been stating) is that we have to do things as God would have us to do them and as the Holy Spirit moves upon on us to inspire us to do these things.
ReplyDeleteSome have made comments saying that they praise God with the only "dance" that they know, which they learned from the world. I would expect a new believer in the Christ to reason this way...and it is an honourable thing to want to give God glory in all that we do (even in the dance as Scripture tells us to do) but we should be careful to not get to the point that we are so comfortable with what we have learned in the world that it becomes a part of the Body of Christ. I would recommend asking God for a new dance and trust that the Holy Spirit will give that to you.
I will go this far to say that movements in and of themselves are not "holy" but what makes them set apart unto the Lord is the spirit by which these things are done. I will not go further in to this because Latter Days has already talked about it too.
Really what this all boils down to is maturity and a correct understanding of the Word of God. When we worship, when we praise, when we read, when we pray we MUST put all notions of all of the worldy impulses that we still have in our hearts and then offer those things (praise, worship, prayer, etc.)to the Lord. God WILL give you a new dance if you ask Him but you have to have a desire to let go of what you know as comfortable and familiar and look to God for all things in all ways. Our expressions of praise towards Christ may all vary but they MUST ALL BE A FRUIT OR A WORK OF THE HOLY GHOST WORKING IN US AND EXPRESSING THE LOVE OF GOD THROUGH US (even in dance).
Another thing (as far as ministry is concerned), and I think this was mentioned, we cannot take what belongs to the world and suppose that it is a good or profitable means to draw the world to Christ. This dilutes the Gospel in our lives (it does not dilute the Gospel as a whole because it is powerful and can stand on its own without our help to "push or promote it along with our "crafty: ideas). We CANNOT draw the world by worldly means. It only begets more worldliness. This is how people are decevied and confused from jump street and begin to believe that they can offer to God anything. People are discipled people in the wrong way and I don't believe God is pleased with that but I do believe that HE WANTS and WILL change it all for His glory if we are willing to deny ourselves. If we are willing to say "Lord, I don't care how I used to dance or what I used to sing but my desire is to please you with everything that I have because I love you so much that none of that other stuff matters. All that matters is that you are pleased with me in EVERY aspect of my life and if you want to change how I dance, what I look like, the way I talk then by all means go for it because it is all for your glory anyway. Father forgive us for placing ourselves above you."
As I type, I realize that I have a lot of denying of myself still to do because where the Spirit is willing, the flesh is still weak but I desire to walk in the Spirit so that my flesh(my own selfish will and desires) will not be gratified.
I say all of this as an encouragement to lose all of yourself and all of your notions and seek to not just know but to live all the ways of Christ (as He taught) because this is what I strongly believe in my heart the Lord wants from us. But here is the thing, IT IS NOT EASY...NO ITS NOT EASY BUT WE CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST THAT STRENGTHENS US! Like for real....we can! But the question is, do you want to?
With Love,
Your Sister in Christ
I would like to comment dierctly on Joy-Fit comment....you may or may not read this but you mention the "culture." The culture of hip hop at that. What I suggest be done in this matter, for Joy or anyone else that reads this comment....PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH ON THE "CULTURE" of HIP HOP before making the strong comments that were made. If you ask me, HIP HOP is not even really a culture if you look at the constructs of it all. But people have treated is a culture in that they have allowed it to shape the way they think, speak, dress....shouldn't we submit these things to Christ?
ReplyDeleteThe only "culture" we are to have as believers is the culture of Christ. Christ comes first, ABOVE ANY CULTURE ABOVE, ABOVE ANY GENERATION. If we are in Christ, He will teach us and give us wisdom on how to deal with cultures, personalities AND generations. That is what He did. He debunked all of the traditions and ways of men and showed them a better way...the only way.
I will say this concerning the "music" that we hear and may deem hip hop or whatever. Rap is merely an expression. Kind of like ryhtmic poetry. So to have a Christian rapper....I would argue to say that is plausible because the "rapping" doesn't influence who they are as people..as Christians. Now on the other hand, concerning Hip Hop. Hip Hop, even as you have said, is a way of living. Think about it like this...are you satisfied, as a Christian and true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, comfortable with something like Hip Hop influencing the way that you live?
Familiar scripture: Romans 12:2(from the NIV since you don't like the Old English) Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and prove what God's wil is - his good, pleasing and perfect will.
With Love,
Your Sister in Christ
Very sensational...:-)
ReplyDeleteLooking at the dates on these other comments, I know I'm coming in late but still felt a need to throw my 2 cents in.
ReplyDelete1st off thank you for your work in the Lord. I first found out about this blog from watching your videos on Beyonce's "Crazy in Love." It was very insightful and I found myself doing a lot of the same analysis with a lot of things I watch/listen to. As you can imagine, my music library is undergoing some changes.
I read through a few of your posts and comments that everyone has been posting and I've noticed a common theme with this one in particular. It seems that a lot of people truly want to glorify God with their gifts, particularly through music/dance be it krumping, breakdancing, ballet, ect. but it seems as though there's a disagreement on what's acceptable to God.
I agree with you, when it comes to worshiping God, I'm not the audience, I'm the backup dancer/singer. So it really is about what He wants and not us. And things that are inherently sinful or bring glory solely (or intentionally) to us cannot be used to glorify Him- lap dances for the Lord = a bad idea.
I guess my question is how do we go about determining what is acceptable to Him? You responded to someone in another post that certain forms of dancing seem to be to glorify self but isn't that more a posture of the heart than the posture of a body? And how could you determine where a person's heart is at just by looking at them? I mean people can do ballet to bring glory to themselves the same as people can use anything else to take the focus off the Lord.
I guess my point is that I've always been under the impression that anything you are gifted with should be used to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31). I'm pretty sure all the "Crunk for Christ" ministries were not advocating drugs and alcohol but rather "let's just get hype and have a good time in the Lord." On a side note, I wonder if the Gospel is preached or disciples of Jesus are made at these events but that's another post.
Anyway thank you for your post. I really do think it's important that people are focused on Him rather than self.
Hi Craig,
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt that some truly want to glorify God. The issue is that serving God is not about what we do for Him, but what He does through us.
It is not our motivation which determines whether something is of God. This I think is a common misconception about Christianity.
We can sit down and think of many wonderful things to do to honor God. We can perfect our talents and offer them to God. We can labor and offer the fruit of our works to God. And ALL of it can be in vain (Genesis 4:5; Leviticus 10:1; Matthew 7:22-23).
The only things which belong to God are those things which are inspired by Him. That is how we determine what is of God, by discerning what Spirit is in operation.
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.
Does crunking demonstrate peace? gentleness? meekness? temperance?
You have discounted lap dancing as being a way to glorify God. Have you first looked into the heart of all of these dancers before making that conclusion? No. Instead, you can look at the spirit on display in lap dances and know that it is not of God - in spite of the motivation of the dancer.
I am not criticizing you here. I am pointing out that even you don't believe that the motivation of a person alone determines whether something is of God.
True Christianity is not man doing what he wants - or even what he thinks is "good" - for God, by submitting to God for HIS will to be done in us. Anything that is not born of His Spirit is not of Him.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6
Oops! The above should say:
ReplyDelete"True Christianity is not man doing what he wants - or even what he thinks is "good" - for God, BUT submitting to God for HIS will to be done in us. Anything that is not born of His Spirit is not of Him."
"I don't doubt that some truly want to glorify God. The issue is that serving God is not about what we do for Him, but what He does through us.
ReplyDelete"
Agreed.
"It is not our motivation which determines whether something is of God. This I think is a common misconception about Christianity. "
Agreed. We can both think of some disturbing things that have been done in the name of God that I'm sure He never condoned.
In regards to those passages (Genesis 4:5; Leviticus 10:1; Matthew 7:22-23), were those people rejected because of what they offered or the posture of their heart?
Gen. 4:5 I didn't find anything in scripture pertaining to a required form of sacrifice for Cain and Abel, Cain gave what he had but something was not right with him- rather than ask what God wanted of him, he killed his brother (Gen 4:7-8)
Lev. 10:1 by that time there were prescribed and specific directions for how the priest were to conduct worship and sacrifice but Nadab and Abihu disobeyed them, hence their punishment.
Matt. 7:22-23 I always took this passage as talking about false prophets and people who had been deceived by them such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who preached a different gospel (Gal. 1:9) How do you read it?
My point in asking that is an attempt to discern what inspires people do what they do; how do we determine if less controversial things such as ballet are done to honor God or glorify self and it just happens to be at church?
"The only things which belong to God are those things which are inspired by Him. That is how we determine what is of God, by discerning what Spirit is in operation. "
Agreed. But if God doesn't inspire people to worship Him, than who did? (Matt. 12:26)
I think we have different connotations of crunk. I understand that is it used to describe people being high and/or drunk but it's also used to describe people just being excited and animated. Needless to say, I only condone the latter. And yes I do believe that you can get excited in a way that demonstrates all of those things, peace, meekness, temperance, and gentleness.
ReplyDeleteFor example, back when I use to go clubbing all the time, the DJ would put on some Lil John (one of the originators of crunk) and people just go crazy. I've gotten elbowed in the face, punched in the ribs, and even took a few cigarette burns. All of these were on accident but none the less, still not the most peaceful place to be. Praise god for delivering me from even wanting to go there anymore.
On the flip side of that, I went to see a Christian rapper, Flame in concert this past summer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MllhC0qyEjY Here's the link to a video for one of the songs he performed. People were dancing and enjoying themselves but nobody was accidentally beat up in the crowd. At the end of his set, he even presented the Gospel.
One last question: if certain modes of worship or talents -break dancing, rap ect. aren't acceptable to God, what should people do with those gifts? Do we just bury them in the backyard? (Matt 25:14-30) Do we use them to exalt ourselves? (Isaiah 14:13)
My main reason for engaging in this dialogue with you is that I'm trying to get a better understanding how to better worship my Creator, not just that 15-20 minutes before service starts where they're playing music but with my whole life- even though I fail in that more times than I care to admit. Some of the concepts you've proposed are new to me and I'm just trying to approach them with a Berean mentality (Acts 17:10-11) and I thank you for taking time to respond to me.
Hi Craig,
ReplyDeleteHave you ever heard the phrase, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions?"
I would have to reiterate that the motivation of the heart is not what determines whether an offering is acceptable to God nor not. One's actions are either inspired by the Spirit of God or not.
I am not speaking of people doing horrible things in the name of the Lord. I am speaking of even our "good works". If they are not what God commands us to do (inspired by God), then they are not Godly, regardless of how sincerely they are offered (Isaiah 64:6). Obedience is better than sacrifice (I Samuel 15:22).
It is not about discerning what inspires people to do what they do. It is not about people at all, but about the Lord and recognizing when His Spirit is in operation...and when it is not.
The living word of God within a born again believer is able to discern between what is spiritual and what is soulish (Hebrews 4:12). May we all seek continued wisdom to know the difference.
Hello again Craig,
ReplyDeleteI would say that it doe snot matter what you or I think getting crunk means. The only relevant point is whether God inspires such, whether it occurs under the leading of God's Spirit.
The entire discussion of Christianity needs to be elevated beyond what man thinks or likes so that the center of the faith becomes not the opinions of men, but the will of God.
There is a large misconception about what praise is and about what worship is in the church. For example, you say about the rap concert, "People were dancing and enjoying themselves..."
The purpose of Praise and Worship is not for us to enjoy ourselves. It is not about us at all. It is supposed to be about God.
The way to worship our Creator is laid out in Scripture:
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1
There is a sermon from Pastor Zac Ponnen on the blog that gets into the issue of praise and worship in the church, specifically as it relates to music. I would highly recommend that you listen to this sermon, which may be found here:
http://thelatterdays.blogspot.com/2011/01/jesus-is-not-schizophrenic.html
Hi LDM,
ReplyDeleteYes I have heard of that phrase and yes sadly enough there will be many in Hell who meant well or were (mis)lead by someone who meant well. I definitely do NOT want to fall in either of those categories. Part of why I'm dialoguing with you and comparing that with what I've found in scripture to get a better understanding of the things of God.
I would like to also reiterate that I do agree with you on that matter that God is the final authority on what's acceptable and pleasing to Him and certainly not our hearts (Jeremiah 17:9). I also believe that our actions are either determined by the Holy Spirit or not. I really do believe we are on the same page, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what it means to live that out.
"The entire discussion of Christianity needs to be elevated beyond what man thinks or likes so that the center of the faith becomes not the opinions of men, but the will of God."
I could not agree with you more.
The PURPOSE of praise and worship is not to enjoy ourselves, it's to praise and worship God. I agree with that as well. When I said that people were having a good time, I wasn't speaking about the purpose of the concert (I would assume the purpose was for people to be edified, encouraged and invited into The Faith). But it's hard not to enjoy yourself when you're praising Him.
"One's actions are either inspired by the Spirit of God or not..."
"It is not about discerning what inspires people to do what they do. It is not about people at all, but about the Lord and recognizing when His Spirit is in operation...and when it is not."
Please explain what you meant by these two statements.
I really do agree with you that worship is God centered. I think any discrepancy we may have can be summed up in two questions:
1. If God doesn't inspire people to worship Him, who does? (Matt. 12:26)
2. If certain gifts/talents people have are not to be used to glorify God, what should we use them for? (1 Cor 10:31) Or should we just throw them away? (Matt. 25:14-30)
Thank you again for taking time to answer my questions and for the link to that sermon. I'm listening to it right now. It's even touching on some other questions I had about some other topics.
Hi Craig,
ReplyDeleteI am glad that you are finding that sermon helpful. In terms of your questions:
1. If God doesn't inspire people to worship Him, who does? (Matt. 12:26)
God seeks those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Only the inspiration that comes from His Spirit can produce such worship.
Satan will readily inspire people to worship God...as long as it is soulish/fleshly and in lies.
There are many examples in the OT where Israel's worship to God was rejected by Him because it was defiled. Even the NT states that there is "another Jesus" being preached which carries another spirit under a false gospel (II Cor. 11:4).
Don't assume that just because something claims to be done for the 'worship of God' or carries the name of "Jesus" that it is from Him or accepted by Him. Satan offers counterfeits in order to prevent people from really knowing the True & Living God.
2. If certain gifts/talents people have are not to be used to glorify God, what should we use them for? (1 Cor 10:31) Or should we just throw them away? (Matt. 25:14-30)
All should be done for the glory of God, which is the purpose of this article. Yet, when our gifts are used in soulish ways, then God is not glorified.
As with all things, it is not about us, but about Him. Not about what we like, think, or want to do, but what He is doing.
Being God-centered does not mean that we do everything with God in mind. It means that everything we do is birthed from Him. There is a difference between the two. It is not about us living for Him but Him living through us.
If you look at the articles on this site that deal with Babylon, then it might give you more insight into the false religious experience Satan offers in order to keep people from God.
The sermon I referred you to above also addresses this, so I am hopeful that will answer any other questions you may have.
hi
ReplyDeleteIm irungu from kenya, i have read most of the articles about music & since then i have not bean able to sing any music even gospel that is despite the fact that i am a gospel artist to be i have more than 15 songs which range from reggae to soul
hi
ReplyDeletei have read most of ur articles about music. since then i have never sung a song even gospel that is despite the fact that i am a gospel artist wannabe i have more than 15 songs ranging from reggae to soul. This is my question how do i know tho songs to sing or is it right for me to sing 'shackles'or 'i am a friend of God'?
Hi Irungu,
ReplyDeleteThese articles have not been written to muzzle the praises of the Lord. If God has given you the gift of song and has put it into your heart to praise Him in that way, then you should.
The only point I would stress is to remain always before the Lord and let Him direct your gift. Don't use it to please men or even to please self. This advise of course goes for anything, not just music.
We must be aware that the gifts God bestows for His glory Satan would like to pervert for his purposes.
I have endeavored to share on this blog what God is showing me, but take no man's word alone in defining what is true. Seek God for His answers and His truth and He will be faithful to answer you.
God desires to perfect us according to the work He is doing in us, and that even includes perfecting the gifts He gives us. He will guide you in the way you should go.
God Bless!
Hi again Irungu,
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that I missed your follow-up post. We must have been both posting at the same time.
I used to sing Shackles alot. It was a favorite of mine. My daughter has "I am a Friend of God" on her ipod even now.
Singing such songs does not make one a sinner or even carnal necessarily. Such is not a matter of condemnation.
I simply believe that as we grow in God, He reveals more of Himself in us and He changes us to be more like Him.
This means that things we liked today we may not like tomorrow as He changes the desires of our heart. There may be things we find acceptable today that He might one day put His finger on and change.
We are to walk each day according to the light we have been given by Him. We really are being changed from glory to glory as we grow in faith.
So, long as answer short, just seek to be led by God. Ask Him to lead you by His Spirit in all things (including music) and He will do so. If we are obedient children to Him, He will show us and convict us about what displeases Him.
Jesus alone is the standard, not any person...including myself. While I have endeavored to share what is true, let God confirm within you what He would have you to know. Then you will have peace.
Thanks for writing!
What is pharmekeia? I've heard of it before. Mostly being used to say that physicians and pharmacists are modern day socerors. Never in this sense. And what is this ungodly spirit associated with? Pandemonium?
ReplyDeleteU people have Absolutley NO IDEA what u r talking about. I feel that people like "the latter days" r so fricken stuck in the bible times that it is hard for u to see stuff. Jesus wants us to go out and make disciples of ALL NATIONS. ALL PEOPLE. Not just those who only listen to hymns. What makes u think that u can say that Lecrae's music is evil and idiocracy? For someone like him who grew up in the ghetto his whole life and his main mission to reach people in the ghetto he can not just walk up and give them Chris Tomlin. He has to give them something that they can relate to. I feel that Lecrae's music is just as powerful as church hymns are. And the whole "drunk" thing u r talking about. U have NO IDEA. You r obviously a old wise man. So what do u know about modern slang? What Google tells you? Because honestly man, u have to know what it is like coming from the ghetto or being a Christian youth to TRULY understand the meaning to this. Crunk may mean that you are a mix of high and drunk but u have to take it out of its original context and see that words don't always mean the same thing. When someone says they are "high on the Holy Spirit" it does not mean that they just smoked a blunt and started reading the bible. It means that the Holy Spirit is so fricken great that they don't need drugs. So being crunk for Christ, that is absolutely fine.
ReplyDelete"Your boasting [over the supposed spirituality of your church] is not good [indeed, it is vulgar and inappropriate]. Do you not know that [just] a little leaven ferments the whole batch [of dough, just as a little sin corrupts a person or an entire church]? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, just as you are, still unleavened. For Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed. Therefore, let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of vice and malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and [untainted] truth.
DeleteI wrote you in my [previous] letter not to associate with [sexually] immoral people— not meaning the immoral people of this world, or the greedy ones and swindlers, or idolaters, for then you would have to get out of the world and human society altogether! But actually, I have written to you not to associate with any so-called [Christian] brother if he is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater [devoted to anything that takes the place of God], or is a reviler [who insults or slanders or otherwise verbally abuses others], or is a drunkard or a swindler—you must not so much as [e]eat with such a person. For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders (non-believers)? Do you not judge those who are within the church [to protect the church as the situation requires]? God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside [the faith]. Remove the wicked one from among you [expel him from your church]." I Corinthians 5:6-13
"Therefore, since we know the fear of the Lord [and understand the importance of obedience and worship], we persuade people [to be reconciled to Him]. But we are plainly known to God [He knows everything about us]; and I hope that we are plainly known also in your consciences [your God-given discernment]. We are not commending ourselves to you again, but are giving you an occasion to be [rightfully] proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in [outward] appearances [the virtues they pretend to have] rather than what is [actually] in heart. If we are out of our mind [just unstable fanatics as some critics say], it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for your benefit. For the love of Christ controls and compels us, because we have concluded this, that One died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that all those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and was raised for their sake.
So from now on we regard no one from a human point of view [according to worldly standards and values]. Though we have known Christ from a human point of view, now we no longer know Him in this way. Therefore if anyone is in Christ [that is, grafted in, joined to Him by faith in Him as Savior], he is a new creature [reborn and renewed by the Holy Spirit]; the old things [the previous moral and spiritual condition] have passed away. Behold, new things have come [because spiritual awakening brings a new life]." II Corinthians 5:11-17
"But far be it from me to boast [in anything or anyone], except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision anything [of any importance], nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [which is the result of a new birth—a spiritual transformation—a new nature in Christ Jesus]" Galatians 6:14-15