What day is the Sabbath?
The Sabbath day - when referred to in Scripture - is speaking of Saturday. Specifically sundown on Friday evening to sundown on Saturday evening."Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. " Exodus 31:15 (Also examine Exodus 16:23; Exodus 35:2; Leviticus 16:31; Leviticus 23:3; Leviticus 23:32; Leviticus 25:4; Deuteronomy 5:14)
The Sabbath is to be a holy memorial to God's act of creation, where He rested on the 7th day. There is no Scripture indicating that God ever replaced the Sabbath with observance of any other day.
Why do Many Christians Worship on Sunday?
In the early church, most Christians still gathered on the Sabbath. Yet, there is historical evidence of gatherings on Sundays as well in recognition of Jesus' resurrection. Around 150 AD, Justin Martyr states in his first Apology "Weekly Worship of the Christians":
"...we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place...But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought the change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead."
Even the Scriptures reference the apostles gathering on the first day of the week:
"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. " Acts 20:7
However, this was not a weekly observance of the church initially and was not considered a replacement for the Sabbath.
A 5th century church historian named Socrates Scholasticus had the following to say:
"For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this." (Ecclesiastical History, book 5, chap. 22)
This indicates that gathering on Saturdays was a worldwide Christian standard, but that by the 5th century, some ancient tradition had influenced the Greeks and Romans to cease doing this.
Several factors arose influencing a move to replace the Sabbath (Saturday) with what came to be referred to as the Lord's Day (Sunday). One was the tension between the Jewish and Christian communities. The Sabbath was clearly a Jewish tradition and some in the early church did not like the association.
Whether motivated by a desire not to be linked to Jewish persecution or whether there was anti-semetic sentiment involved, emphasis on Sunday worship presented an opportunity to create further distinction between the Jews and the Christians.
Rome Makes An Edict for Sunday Worship
Another prominent factor was a move by Rome to make Sunday the official day of rest. Rome had been a persecutor of Christians and Jews. Yet in spite of this, Christianity was flourishing, resulting in great discord in the Roman Empire.
This was the situation facing the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great when he came to power. Constantine eventually became a convert to Christianity, although it is debatable whether this was a true conversion or a political ploy. In 321 A.D., Constantine issued an edict declaring Sunday as the official day of rest for the Roman Empire:
"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." (Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 380, note 1)
What was the "ancient tradition" Socrates referred to above which he said influenced Alexandria and Rome to worship on Sundays? Constantine tells us here: ancient Sun worship. Both the Greek and Roman cultures were steeped in pagan mythology.
Did this unilaterally change Christian worship from the Sabbath to Sunday? No, but it illustrates what was an ever-increasing trend to have Sunday designated as the "holy day" instead of the Sabbath. Taking advantage of anti-Jewish angst - and providing a platform by which to unite pagans and Christians under one "church" - Rome began to pass even more stringent edicts solidifying Sunday as the new Sabbath for the Christian church. By the 5th century, this had been mandated as the standard for all of the Roman Empire (which represented much of the known world at that time).
Is Sunday Worship A Pagan Act?
One could look at history and say, "See!! Sunday worship has its roots in paganism! We must go back to worshiping on Saturdays and move away from any participation in pagan worship."
Yet, that assertion is erroneous on several fronts.
- The early church did sometimes meet on Sundays prior to any edict from Rome.
- The church was not commanded by God to gather on the Sabbath.
- The observance of a specific "day" to keep the Sabbath was done away with in the passing of the Old Covenant.
- Christians are called to honor the Spirit of the Sabbath.
We know from Scripture and historical evidence that Christians did occasionally meet on Sundays as a way to celebrate Jesus' resurrection.
While God never ordained this as a replacement for the Sabbath - nor did the early church consider it to be - there is a precedence for Sunday worship that has nothing to do with paganism. Therefore, one cannot say that all Sunday worship represents paganism.
Sabbath Meeting Was Not Commanded by God
Although the early church gathered on the Sabbath, this was not by compulsion of law. The Gospel was preached to the Jew first, and then to the Greek. The Christian Church has its roots in the Jewish faith, for whom the Sabbath was already an established day of rest. It is natural that this practice would have continued, but it was NOT because they were required by God to do so.
When the Church got together to decide what would be required of the Gentile converts to the faith, Scripture records the following:
"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave NO such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." Acts 15:5-29
There was NO commandment for Christians to keep the law. Additionally, keeping the Sabbath day was not even one of the "necessary things" they decided to mandate for Christians.
This is why we cannot be judged about Sabbath days, because there is no longer a requirement to keep a "day" as the Sabbath.
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:14
There was no commandment to keep the law (including the Sabbath day) because the church recognized that the old covenant (along with the letter of the law) had passed.
The Old Covenant Has Passed
Some assert that the passing of the "law" in the New Testament does not include the Ten Commandments, yet this is false. In the following text, God speaks specifically about the status of the old covenant.
"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which IS Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? CAST OUT the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Galatians 4:21-31
These ARE the two covenants. In this allegory, Agar represents the old covenant which was given on Mt. Sinai (where God gave Moses the Ten Commandments). Notice that this woman/covenant has been "cast out".
Still, some say that references to the old covenant in that text does not refer to the Ten Commandments. However, examine how God talks about the Ten Commandments:
"And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand." Exodus 34:28-29
"And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:" Leviticus 26:15
"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. " Deuteronomy 4:13
"At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day." Deuteronomy 10:8
"There was nothing in the ark save the TWO TABLES OF STONE, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD MADE A COVENANT with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." I Kings 8:9
"And in it have I put the ark, wherein IS THE COVENANT of the LORD, that he made with the children of Israel." II Chronicles 6:11
God continually and explicitly refers to the Ten Commandments as being representative of the old covenant. This continues in Galatians Chapter 4 by where He states that Mt. Sinai/Agar is the old covenant which has been cast out.
Like the rest of the law, the Ten Commandments has passed and no longer applies to those in Christ. As discussed in the series "The Spirit of the Law", the Old Testament law represents the letter of God's commands while the New Testament represents the Spirit of God's commands. The Christian is called to obey the Spirit behind the commands and no longer the letter, which was only a shadow of those things to come.
So, how is a Christian to obey the Law of the Spirit in honoring the Sabbath?
The Purpose of the Sabbath
Before we can understand what it means to obey the Spirit of the Sabbath, we must first know why God ordained the Sabbath.A Sabbath or "shabath" in Hebrew is a "rest". So, when God gave man a Sabbath, He was literally giving man a rest. But what kind of rest? The Scriptures tell us.
"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:2-3
The seventh day was sanctified because it was at this time that God rested from all of His work.
"Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:13-17
Israel ceased from their work for one day to keep the Sabbath, which is a perpetual covenant honoring God as the Creator of all.
"If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 58:13-14
Israel acknowledged the Sabbath by setting aside a day where they would cease from 1) doing their own pleasure; 2) following their own ways; and 3) speaking their own mind, so that they could delight themselves in the Lord by putting Him first to be revered as holy.
The Sabbath is a perpetual and holy covenant honoring God as the Creator of all things in which we take time to rest from our own works and delight ourselves in Him.
Notice however, that although God gave the observance of the Sabbath "day" to Israel, this was not the fullness of the rest that He desired for them...it was only a "sign" of that rest.
"But with whom was he grieved forty years? Was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:17-19
Examine this text carefully. Who is God speaking of here?
He is speaking of the Israelites whom He had led out of Egypt and kept for 40 years in the wilderness. These are individuals with whom He had made a covenant at Mt. Sinai. These are those who were keeping the letter of the Sabbath! How then is it possible for them not to have entered into God's rest when they were keeping the Sabbath "day"?
"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Hebrews 4:1
Although there was a "day" of rest given as a memorial by God, there was yet still a promise of rest left beyond that "day".
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:2-3
The promise of rest beyond the "day" is obtained through faith. Those who believe DO enter into His rest. Do they enter into this rest by believing and then observing the day? No. They enter into God's rest by believing alone.
"For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." Hebrews 4:4-9
There "remains" a rest for God's people beyond the day He designated as the Sabbath. Remember, the observance of the "day" was a sign.
"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4:10-11
There we have it. Once we turn in faith to Jesus, we enter into His rest because we have ceased from our own works. This is the objective of the Sabbath: rest; and it is fulfilled through belief in Jesus.
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
What is the "rest" and "promise left" in which we must enter, for which the "day" was a "sign"? It is man turning in faith to Jesus Christ and being crucified in Him so that we have ceased from our works allowing Him to work through us.
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:28-29
Again, Jesus is speaking above to them who keep the Sabbath "day". Yet, they still had not attained to the rest of which He was speaking, even while observing the "day".
The rest we find in Jesus Christ is the "rest" that remained, the promise that was left, that which could only be obtained through faith in the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Lord of the Sabbath
"At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." Matthew 12:1-8
When looking at this text, people are often quick to point out that what the disciples did here was not in violation of the law (Deuteronomy 23:25). However, notice that Jesus compares their actions to the actions of David in eating the shewbread, which was against the law. He also compares it to the priests' work in the temple which He also says profanes the Sabbath. Why does Jesus make these comparisons? What is the point in comparing something that was against the law with something that was not?
He was trying to show that adherence to the letter of the law was never God's objective with mankind (remember, there was a rest that remained beyond the letter of the "day"). Jesus was holding up the Spirit of the law as being preeminent to the letter. God was not allowing or excusing a breaking of His law with David or the priests. These did not break the Sabbath (although they were not holding to the "letter" of the Sabbath) because they were fulfilling the Spirit of the Sabbath.
David partaking of the shewbread was symbolic of believers partaking in Jesus Christ - the bread of life. Leviticus 22:10-11 states that - while only the priests may eat of the holy things set aside for God in the temple - those individuals whom the priests themselves purchase may partake as well. Jesus Christ has purchased every believer by His own blood. This therefore (like with David) lifts the prohibition of the letter of the law calling for a "day" of rest. Not because the Sabbath is nullified, because it is fulfilled as we enter into the true rest God intends - faith in Jesus Christ (of which David's actions were a type).
Similarly, Jesus says the priests work to prepare the temple and thereby profane the Sabbath. Yet, they are blameless because they are doing the Lord's service. We read in Scripture that God makes us all priests in Him (I Peter 2:9). As such, our life (not just a day) is one of dedicated service to Jesus, one greater than the temple building. Against such there is no prohibition about a "day" because we are entering into the real rest, the promise left, that God intended: a ceasing from our work so that His work can be done.
Jesus was impressing upon the Pharsiees that His disciples were attaining to the spirit of rest, the promise left, the rest that remained by partaking of the bread of life and doing the Lord's will. In doing so, they are not held to the letter of a "day" of rest because they have entered into the true rest for which the "day" was a "sign".
The Pharisees were using the law to put a stranglehold on the people and put them in bondage to the letter, but God never intended it to be so. The law was a shadow of the fuller promise which was to come in the new covenant.
There is another retelling of this Scripture found in Mark.
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." Mark 2:23-28
Jesus makes a very profound statement here: The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
This statement is similar to the following: "Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." I Corinthians 11:9
Can you see the parallels in those two texts? It is talking about the relationship that one has to the other.
Man doesn't serve the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was given to serve a purpose for man. What purpose? To instill upon us the need to enter into the rest of God, which could only be achieved through submission to the Lord of the Sabbath.
What is lawful to do on the Sabbath? Jesus says is perfectly, "Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days." (Matthew 12:12) It is lawful to do well, and we can only do well by entering into that promise of rest God has prepared for those who turn in faith to Jesus.
No. Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast. God is not looking for what day we worship Him in, but what spirit. We are called to worship God in Spirit and in Truth by ceasing from our own works, our own ways, our own words, so that Christ may live through as...and that every day.
The interesting thing about the mark of the beast is that the number of his name is 666. We also know that the number 6 is often a reference to man since God created man on the 6th day. As such, the number 666 denotes a person whose soul, spirit, and body are imprinted with a focus on man - spirit (6), soul (6), body (6). So the mark of the beast (666) speaks to the spiritual reprobation and selfishness that will be prominent in many at the end.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves..." II Timothy 3:1-2a
The authority (name) of the beast has its power in the fallen nature of man, not in a day of worship. When people continue to look at the external as a means of pleasing God (what we do) they miss it by a mile. God is looking at who we are, not what we do, because who we are is the "root" of what we will do. Jesus said it this way:
"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:24-26
Man, trapped by a carnal mind, is always trying to perform for God. You must rest on this day, you must not eat these foods, you must wear these clothes, taste not, touch not...these are all about outward conformity. Yet, God is looking at and dealing with the heart. As long as man thinks he is pleasing God by his actions, he will never understand the need to be made clean in the inward man because his own efforts produce self-righteousness.
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Romans 10:2-3
"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" Philippians 3:9
In the old covenant, we set aside the 7th day to honor God as the Creator of all by resting as He did.
In the new covenant, we walk in the spirit of 7th day by honoring the One who created all things (Colossians 1:16) every day through faith in His completed work (7 representing the number of completion), allowing us to be born again and cease from our own works so that the works of God may be done in us (John 6:28-29). We transition from living in the 6th day where man is the center of all (selfishness) to the 7th day where God becomes the focus of all, and thereby enter into God's rest.
The Sabbath "day" was a "sign" of the "rest" that God's people have in Him. Yet, there was a promise of "rest" that "remained" beyond observance of a "day" which could only be obtained through "faith" in Jesus Christ.
Those who argue about a day (whether Sunday, Saturday, or any other) are not appreciating or understanding the rest that God desires for man. It does not matter what day you worship God, cease from your works, and rest in Him because you are supposed to be doing these things every day. Your life is not your own. You have been bought with a price.
We honor the Sabbath by submitting to the Lord of the Sabbath, and in doing so we find our daily rest in Him.
"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." Isaiah 11:10
A number of individuals have asked for a post on this topic and there may be questions, comments, criticisms of what is written. To allow a constructive discussion, I am asking that you submit any comments needing a response from us to our forum so that others can follow along and contribute as they feel led.
This topic is one which will make conversation via "Comments" challenging.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, while you are free to comment on this article, responses from Latter Days Ministry will be posted in our Message Board forum
Thanks!
Thank you so much for posting this.
ReplyDeleteIt really helped me understand a few things which I had not understood earlier.
God bless you and continue to use your work to bless others.
:)
What did Jesus mean when he told us to keep his commandments if we love Him,then? By worshiping on the Sunday aren't we worshiping men since men established that day as the day set apart to worship God?
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteMaybe the following link will help you with that answer?
God Says, "Keep My Commandments"
hi are you guys hebrew isrealities? the guys from up north that preach on the side walks like i new york? and do you know that jesus is black and that black people was the chosen children of God and about the 12 tribes of Judha? and that white people came about from easu, and that thy are call red people lie rd necks because easu was so greedy when God told him do not eat from the hot pot that was cooking with lentil beans and that it was meat in the pot and that it wasn't cooked yet but easu disobeyed God and ate it anyways, and then thats how they came about and God hate white people?
ReplyDeleteHi FancyFac,
ReplyDeleteWe are not Black Hebrew Israelites, and that group is a man-made delusion. The comments you have made are false and I would caution you to study the Scriptures for the truth. God does not "love" Blacks and "hate" whites.
If you desire to serve the Lord, turn away from fleshly false gospel messages that aim to puff up temporal man at the expense of the truths of the Gospel. God couldn't care less what color you are, He is looking for those who will serve Him in Spirit and in truth.
Some are saying that Acts 15:19-21 supports that Christians are still under the law. We are posting our response to one such inquiry.
ReplyDelete*************
Acts 15 starts as the Apostles are gathered in Jerusalem and an issue is raised.
A "sect" arose claiming to the Gentiles that it was "needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses".
The Apostles do not agree with this assertion, but DISPUTE it based on the following:
* Peter preached to the Gentiles personally
* God made no distinction between them in giving the Holy Spirit and purifying them
* To say they had to keep the law was a TEMPTATION of God and a YOKE.
* It is by grace that we are saved.
* Paul & Barnabus share the miracles worked among the Gentiles.
* James states how Peter's testimony matches the words of the prophets saying that God would call Gentiles unto Himself.
It is based on ALL of this discussion that the conclusions are reached.
Even WITHOUT the law - God made no distinction between them and the Gentiles, working miracles amongst them, purifying them in the faith, and saving them by His grace in accordance with His word via the prophets.
THEN starts verse 19,
"Wherefore my sentence is, that we TROUBLE not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:"
James says that based on ALL of what was just stated, they should not "trouble" the Gentiles by commanding them to keep the law.
Instead, they do the following:
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." verse 20
"For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." verse 21
In these verses, James is making a distinction between the old and new covenants.
He is reminding them that - if the old one had been sufficient - the Gentiles could attend a synagogue in any city on any Sabbath to hear what Moses taught. However, it was their job as ministers of the Gospel not to preach Moses, but to preach CHRIST.
Gentile Christians did not worship in the synagogues of every city. The synagogues were places of worship for Jews who mostly rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
The Apostles still preached Jesus to the Jews in the synagogues in an attempt to turn them to the faith, but that was not the Christian place of worship.
Therefore, there was NO expectation that Christians would "learn to keep the law" by hearing Moses preached in a synagogue because they were NOT attending synagogues. Such is a misinterpretation of that text.
It was then that they sent letters to all of the CHURCHES (not the synagogues) stating that some were trying to "SUBVERT THEIR SOULS" in saying they had to keep the law.
If Moses is preached in the "synagogues" - and that is supposed to be where the Gentiles hear the message of the law - then why is the council's decision in this matter published to the "churches"? Again, Gentiles did not worship in synagogues. James comments were a reminder that we now have access to a better covenant with better promises and not to go back to that which cannot save, but only hinder (according to the Apostles).
So the conclusion they reach is that there was "no such commandment" to keep the law and neither was the Sabbath one of the "necessary things" they were commanded to keep.
"For it seemed GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to us, to lay upon you NO GREATER BURDEN than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
Do you people ever wonder why the commandments were written in stone and not sand? Why God used His OWN FINGERS to write them, and not just have Moses do it? Stone signifies permanence. Stone serves to solidify the whole thing. Back then, rocks were the hardest substance present; God used that. I am sure that if there was Titanium at the time, He would have used it. The Ten Commandments stand, they are sustainable. They are as solid as a rock! Every single one! The devil has a way of making things look right and correct. He bombards you with a whole lot of historical facts and dates that will support your beliefs and make you convinced that what you are doing is in accordance with God's will. Firstly, the mandate of early Rome to worship on Sundays as opposed to the Seventh Day of the week was an act of rebellion due to the presecution that they faced from the Jews. it's just like Americans drive on the right side of the road because the British drive on the left. And we all know the history between these two. King Henry wnated a divorce from his Barren wife and broke away from the Catholic Church because they would not allow it. Thus, the Anglican Church was formed. this was an act of rebellion as well. It's human nature to break away from the mandates of a seemingly harsh and offensive leadership. Jesus explicitly stated in the bible that nothing will change from God's Law until the end. Jesus observed the Sabbath; what he did not do was to observe it with the measure of rigidity that the pharisees did. Jesus came with a ministry of love and forgiveness. that is why he did not instruct the crowd to stone the adulturous woman to death. In the time of Moses, anyone who was guilty of breaking any of the Ten Laws of God were subject to death by stoning and were sometimes cut off from the people; this was mandated by Moses' Law. That was the culture of the Pharisees. This is why they were like that; so harsh and critical toward anyone that did not observe their rigid and unforgiving rules. So when Jesus came with a reform, they did not readily receive Him. It was different from what they were used to. Look at this logically. The Ten Commandments gave the instruction of what NOT to do. Moses' Law (the one that the Pharisees upheld) provided consequence for not observing the Ten Commandments. Now, when Jesus came, he presented a new set of consequences for those who failed to follow the guidelines of God's Laws. He never made God's Law unnecessary or "no longer enforcable". He rendered Moses' laws of "an eye for an eye" and "stoning people to death" obsolete. Finally, There is a current trend in the Roman Catholic Church to rearrange the order of the days of the week, making the week start on Monday. This causes Sunday to fall on the seventh day of the week. If the same set of people that started this practice many years ago - claiming that it is "not a requirement" to observe the seventh day as the Sabbath of the Lord - are now rearranging the days so that their day of worship can now fall on the seventh day of the week, doesn't that tell you something? There is some food for thought...
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to imply that by using stone God was indicating that the 10 Commandments were to last forever? Guess He just didn't foresee that Moses would break them just after they were given requiring them to be redone? I am being facetious here, but the reality of the Scriptures disproves your assertion about the stone representing some indestructible nature to the law.
You are certainly right that the devil has a way of making things look right, when they are in fact wrong. The standard for Christians is not your feelings toward masonry, thoughts on the church of England, or even beliefs about international traffic laws. It is the word of God. Scripture does not support your claims.
You say, "Jesus explicitly stated in the bible that nothing will change from God's Law until the end." This is false,
Jesus said, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18
The litmus test for when the law will pass away is when ALL of the law is fulfilled.
Further, we know that Jesus came to fulfill the law...and He did just that.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17
At that moment Jesus fulfilled the law, the law passed.
You also say, "If the same set of people that started this practice many years ago - claiming that it is "not a requirement" to observe the seventh day as the Sabbath of the Lord - are now rearranging the days so that their day of worship can now fall on the seventh day of the week, doesn't that tell you something?"
Yes, that tells me that the Roman catholic church is just as pagan as they were in their inception.
But that still doesn't mean Christians are under the law. We are not.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:24-25
For more understanding about the relevance of the law to the believer, please see the following series: http://thelatterdays.blogspot.com/2009/07/spirit-of-law.html
Thanks for your response to my post. I see you have used scriptures from the bible to support your claim that the "Law" (referring to the Ten commandments) are no longer necessary (for lack of a better word). Concerning these two things: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Please explain to us what is meant when Jesus said these words. I also noticed that you did not address my point of the difference between God's Laws (which are indespensible) and Moses' laws, which Jesus actaully abolished (the eye for an eye part). Jesus observed the seventh day Sabbath. There are times indicated in the bible, when He taught in the Jewish Synagogues on the Sabbath. When Jesus was crucified on Friday evening, and Joseph took his wounded body to the tomb, they did not even bother to dress the body because they did not have the time for it (Sabbath was approaching). Notice, Jesus did not raise from the dead on Sabbath (even in DEATH He observed it; He rested). Instead, He rose the following day, Sunday. The maidens did not return to the tomb on Sabbath to dress him either, they rested and waited until Sunday.
ReplyDeleteNow, obviously there are years of schooled theology behind your religious knowledge. I can respect that. All I am is a 20 year old newly converted Christian woman, who seeks to serve God in the way that He intended. Not in the warped and tainted way that mankind has chosen to interpret the scriptures. I have not quoted any scriptures to you my friend, because unlike you I do not need to have them at the tip of my tongue to support my ludicrous claims of what I THINK my beliefs should be about. I don't need to scramble about and dig deeeeeep into scripture to back up my beliefs of why is it I do things how I do them. All, I need to do, as unschooled in theology as I am, is to look at the life that Jesus led. All I have to do is to observe His actions.
It is very clear to me that your years of "Bible Study" has your beliefs cemented very deeply.
But my request of you, is to read the bible like a child would. Try not to read too much into the scriptures like you are doing now. Read the life of Christ and try to determine if the life that Christ led, truly shows that He rendered the Ten Commandments obsolete. OR did He bring about a reform for the way God's people were living? That cold, unforgiving and distant way.
Didn't He clearly abolish "an eye for an eye" when He said that we should forgive "seventy times seven"? He didn't tell people that it was now ok to do wrong to somebody else by lying, stealing, bearing false witness or any of that. He simply let them know that it was no longer ok to do evil to someone who did evil to you. He let them know that just because someone broke the commandment and killed your brother, it doesn't mean that you should kill his brother on the "eye for an eye basis" as stated in Moses' Law. When He stopped the crowd from stoning the adulturous woman, He didn't condone her adultery, He wanted to create a sense of love and forgiveness in the people and an ever-abiding sense of "judge not lest ye be judged".
When the Pharisees chastised Him for healing on the Sabbath, He let them know that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. These were the reforms that Jesus brought about. contd....
Back in the days, the people would have to slay a lamb in atonement for their sins. Because of him, they didn't have to do that anymore! He was the lamb slain for our sins! Jesus brought about a change, a reform for the rigid and stringent rules that once ruled the people.
ReplyDeleteReally, this is my understanding of Jesus' role. The Ten Commandments still stand.
Oh one more thing... Remember there was an instance during the journey of the Israelites when a man was stoned to death because he had gone out on the Sabbath to collect Manna? Before Jesus, it was lawful to kill in the name of God even though the Ten Commandments clearly said "Thou Shalt not Kill".
Because of all the variables, I can deduce that there were obviously two DIFFERENT sets of laws governing the people. Additionally, after following Christ's life, I can also deduce that He did not abolish the Ten Commandments, but the other set of laws - The Mosaic Laws.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe link I gave you above answers all of your questions. It is an in-depth series. You will find the answers you seek if you take the time to read through it.
If you have questions or comments about any particular article, feel free to post comments there as well.
Thanks
Hi Fenecia,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment. I did not approve it as I cannot post links here that promote error.
I would also suggest that you read the series on the Spirit of the Law as linked above.
It is a grave error to believe that God requires Christians to keep a "day" as a Sabbath because such denies the purpose and accomplishments of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. ALL of the law is fulfilled in Christ and once we are in Christ, we are no longer in need of a schoolmaster. Attempts to go back the law are just carnal works of man trying to do what He has already done...and only HE could do.
Please take this topic in prayer to God and ask Him to reveal to you a true understanding of what Jesus has done and what salvation in Him is really about. Again, the series on the Spirit of the Law may help you in this area.
God Bless!
your post on the sabbath day is wrong. While the meaning of the sabbath is true, but by tou stating that it doesnt matter what day you worship on goes against what God commands of his poeple. Although you quoted scriptures,while few can be questionable. I have not seen you mention in the post Exodus 20:8-11 which states.
ReplyDelete"REMEMBER the SABBATH to keep it holy. Six days shall thy labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day: WHEREFORE the Lord Blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."
this verse already destroys your remarks by saying that " but the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord thy God:". So what god are you worshipping because it's not Jehovah, God of abraham. If you are worshipping the the true God of the universe then the day is already chosen. thats why jesus said to the Pharisees in Mark 2:27-28 "The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is the Lord of the sabbath. And by keep the sabbath we acknowledge Jesus as our Lord and savior. you mention the old covenant that was passed away. There is only one covenant/law that was done away with which was written not by God but by moses, the ceremonial law. this covenant that God made with Israel was abolished at the cross. This is mentioned further in the book I mention earlier. As you can clearly see in the text about the sabbath i mentioned it is part of the ten commandments. What does the bible say about the ten commandments?
"And it shall be unto you a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and REMEMBER all the commandments of the of the Lord, and Do them;and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:" Numbers 15:39
"Thou art near O Lord; and ALL thy commandments are truth." Psalm 119: 151
"My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy Commandments are righteous" Psalm 119: 172
"O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep ALL my commandments
ALWAYS, that it might be well with them, and with there children FOR EVER!" Deu. 5: 29
the bible goes on and on about how holy, perfect, and everlasting the commandments of God is. You are saying that the fourth commandment is done away with while god is saying that it is not. You is the liar here you or God.
Hello Grace unto you,
ReplyDeleteIn addition to the links already provided in the comments above, I would recommend the following:
What is Your Christianity Worth?
Seeking After Righteousness
Ministration of Death
The truth is seen in the whole of Scripture for all who have eyes to see, but it requires repentance. As long as we attempt to use the law as some means of establishing our own righteousness, we will never be able to experience the true righteousness which comes only from Christ. There is enough info on this blog which you can search to find answers to your questions/objections.
If your goal is simply to argue & regurgitate what you have been taught, please move on. I am not interested in such.
Thanks
Well for the sake of reasoning I will look at the links to see your point of view and I suggest you do the same. I would like to add that the following links are based wholly on the bible. I believe that if that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Regarding the post Sunday is actually the mark of the beast which is why the Sunday law that will be upon us will be prophecy being fulfilled. Aside from the "mark" the bible talks about the seal of God stated in Rev. 7:2 KJV.
ReplyDelete"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,"
I hope that there will be a post on that soon. For this pertains to the 144,000 which is spoken of in Rev. 14:1.
I do not write these things to bring anyone down but to uplift by sharing knowledge. May the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth.
Hello Grace Unto you,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your response. People justify many things which they believe to be supported by Scripture, but that doesn't make it so. A "spiritual" meaning that is unScriptural is still in error because it is inspired by the wrong spirit. Surely, as we each seek to be led by God's Holy Spirit, He will reveal understanding to us even about His word.
As stated in the article above, the early church worshiped on Sundays long before any edict from Rome. This was never forbidden by God in the Scriptures. When determining what command sin relation to the law believers should be encouraged to keep, the Sabbath is never mentioned. Further, if you read what the Bible says about the mark of the beast, then you would know it is not about a "day" at all. The word mark (charagma) means an imprinted mark, stamp, or graven image. It is about man not bearing the image of God, but the image of fallen man imprinted upon his soul. The condition of man in not being born again and hence possessing the nature of a beast.
Faith in Jesus is not about bringing anyone down or lifting anyone one up (save Christ). We can only be sure that we are honoring God to the extent that we honor His truths. May that be the guide in all we do.
Before I decide to commit myself to reading more of this ....
ReplyDeleteDo you believe that Jesus Christ himself is the Sabbath? Therefore, the Saturday vs Sunday debate is an unnecessary distraction now He is resurrected & we're in under a new covenant?
Hi E,
DeleteThat is what the Scriptures say. Further, they indicate that - not only is the Saturday vs. Sunday argument a distraction - but we are to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth every day. We honor the Sabbath by finding our rest in Christ as we cease from our own works so that the Lord may perform His work work in and through us.
Glory! And I thank Him!!
DeleteLDM, it's always refreshing when I can fellowship with someone who seems to be in the light. But I'm constantly vetting to confirm that b/c I will not be affiliated with anything otherwise. It's so very rare I'm not disappointed and I've been almost fooled twice recently with G. Craig Lewis and Real Talk Radio.
Most recently, I had a disappointing exchange with the guys at the somewhat popular "Real Talk Radio Show" on YouTube. See I was initially excited when I found them b/c I sorta assumed they were in the light ... I mean they have left the Whore of Babylon (the institutional church) like me, they were exposing the tithing lie, and the ills of religion, TD Jakes, masons, greeks, etc.
However, after 2 weeks of listening to them I've started discerning strange spirits. One thing in particular that disturbed me is them proudly exalting and encouraging tattoos and the Holy Hip Hop culture. Both clearly only appeal to the flesh and are darkness.
So I emailed Elgin and JB in love and kindness why this was a problem and gave simple potent scriptures supporting God's will on the matter. And you would've thought I threatened to burn their houses down, I mean all kind of demonic spirits and aggression manifested ... "you ain't God", "who asked you anything", "there's not one scripture stating tattoos are a sin", "you better leave us alone", "you trying to make us look stupid". Mind you I was so passive and nice with my email, very cordial, nothing threatening about it but the truth apparently.
They confirmed what the Holy Spirit was showing me all along, they never fully left out of darkness and the spirit of pride and rebellion strongly controls them two. They're still in darkness b/c if you have the Holy Spirit you are in the light, I shouldn't have to argue you down (I didn't, I stopped after the nasty remarks and lies they made on me) on something so basic and obvious if you have the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Truth and which will led us to all truths.
So this is my warning since I have a heart for the people. Those who have ears let them ear. Stay away from Real Talk Radio (Church Folk Revolution) on BlogTalk and Youtube and G. Craig Lewis. They are a false lights and will seduce you with seemingly sound doctrine but they are hearts and motives are not pure. Trust me, there's better out there ... anybody who mixes sound doctrine with man-made doctrine is detrimental and have an ungodly agenda. The end.
Hi E,
DeleteI am always thankful to see how God works in our lives to purge us from what displeases Him and bring us closer to Him in love. Thank you for sharing your testimony in that area.
In regards to "Church Folk Revolution", I'll just say that much of that is largely just Babylon. I have seen many instances where those in collusion with them willfully corrupt the Scriptures in order to promote some false doctrine they desire teach. The "leadership" there (if you can call it that) are worse in many ways than those they "expose". Reminds me of the following:
"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." II Peter 2:19-20
It is absolutely terrifying what is being done and said in the name of Jesus Christ. The following article was written as a result of much of what I witnessed by those in that camp: This Idol Called Institutional Church
I actually don't know much about what is going on with G. Craig Lewis. There are some areas where he seems to have veered in his teachings (even some I have written about here), but I have not kept up to date with him. All we can do is pray for those who really are seeking to be free from all soulish bondage; that God will open eyes and continue to lead them in the paths of righteousness as we pray He continues to do for all of us. We likely have all made some pitstops on our journey in salvation (as we were led by our flesh), but as long as we remain attentive & sensitive to the Holy Spirit of God, He will lead us away from all error and discipline us not to be led astray in that way again.
May we all keep our eyes single on Christ alone. He is a mighty Deliverer and He will lead us into all truth as we trust in Him. ALL who seek after righteousness shall be filled. Thank the Lord!
Good Afternoon All,
DeleteThis question is directed to E. I have ordered Mr. Lewis DVD's recently TBHH 5,6,and 8,and when I can remember, I tune into his new EXTV show on the ministry website. His EX-TV videos are fairly new and he started off discussing the LGBT agenda. He and his co-host did not discuss the issue in a hateful way like the Westboro followers do. What has the Lord shown you about him that we should avoid? I fact check as much as I can and that is important for us to do when we hear anyone preaching. These are the last days and we cannot just take what they are saying without checking. I do not want to be decieved AT ALL.
Hi GiJane02
DeleteWell I know I've definitely seen him exude such an ungodly hate in the manner in which Westboro does. Once again I'm against the LGBT agenda too but I know the holy spirit is not leading him to sit up there and just mock, bully, and make fun of an obviously deprived population. For example, nothing productive or godly will come from me going on a public hateful rant on struggling alcoholics ... calling them "sick boozers", "stupid lushes", "retarded winos", "bad liver idiots", "alkies need to burn in hell". That's all flesh, ain't nothing spiritual or godly with doing that.
Not only that but a couple months ago I seen an interview he did on YouTube for "Gospel Truth" magazine where he stated he doesn't tell people what music to listen too. That's a bold face lie, he has an empire built on discouraging people from secular music and the gospel industry. The whole time once again I started discerning strange spirits b/c his whole countenance changed. He was clearly saying things just to appease "the system" .... to gain more money and fame at the expense of the truth of course.
Another warning sign, his strong open affiliation with Pastor McKinnsic of Cornerstone Baptist Church who've I met before. This man was an adamant supporter of Barack Obama for years until last year. But that doesn't matter b/c this man proudly supported Obama when Obama publicly stated he was pro-abortion, he didn't believe in a hell, and constantly praised the pope etc. The pope is a satanic man simply put. But yet you had McKinnsic constantly praising Obama in his pulpit and brainwashing his followers to do the same. Mind you, the whole time Lewis was in cohorts with him and didn't utter a word a/g him. McKinnisic is a big financial contributor to Ex-Ministries ... enough said, all about the Benjamins. Not to mention McKinnisic is in cohorts with TD Jakes and other silly doctrines, tithing being one. His church just was full of foolishness honestly ... I can talk hours of the foolishness and ignorance I seen there. I mean many of the members were greeks, masons, and OES ... speaks volumes.
Hopefully this is enough (I can go on) ... but also please seek God on the matter to confirm everything I'm telling you in regards to keeping your distance from him. Yes I've learned from him too but the fact remains he has an apostate agenda, he is the very thing he teaches against, and the holy spirit has been showing me signs for a long time to stay away & I'm obeying now, the holy spirit has never led me wrong about people to avoid and strange spirits ... trust me!
I John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
:)
Oh yea, another big thing for me is when Ex-Ministries blocked a comment I made about the organized religious system and how it's the damnable whore of babylon and harlot system talked about in Revelations. Then I knew for sure they were full of strange spirits and not who I wanted them to be (I can honestly say I started seeing the signs early). I mean the bible does tell us to test all things.
DeleteSee people place their church, denomination, pastor in a place in their heart where Christ is suppose to be alone. B/c if they don't attend church, see a pastor, or affiliated with a denomination (and yes non-denomination is a denomination) they don't feel saved. That ain't nothing but the devil. Jesus is our only covering and source of our salvation, he came so we can do away with the organized religious system.
Think about it. If God wanted us to have an "organized" religious system he would have established that when he initially created Adam and Eve. It was just them and God, no pretenious pastors, no church buildings, no married ministries, no holy conventions, no liturgical dance team .... the "organized" religious system came as a result of Eve's sin. It was never His original plan for us.
DeleteJesus came and rectified that.
Ex-Ministires blocked my comment b/c there livelihood comes from the organized religious system. Yes they do speak against churches and false pastors but they also exalt and condone them as well. Hyprocrites.
We can discuss this more in detail if you like with scripture and things. I'm telling you to leave it alone, it's never good ... I left the Baptist Church after 23 years of bondage to bad doctrine and spirits and I visited many different churches thinking there's a good one out there. But there isn't! And I refused to fight God on it any longer. I've grown so much and way much happier now Im free.
Hi E,
DeleteI think there is one thing which is important to point out: we are not where Adam & Eve were when God created them. Man has been contaminated by sin - as you say - and now we must go through the process of getting back to what was lost in the Garden of Eden. Part of this process, what Scripture refers to as our perfection, includes the various ministries of the church.
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13
These are given for the benefit of the members of the Body of Christ so that we may be perfected. That is a good thing. The problem is, people want to throw out the baby along with the bath water just because they see the ills of Babylon. It is not wrong to have pastors, teachers, meetings, praise leaders, dancers...we are to praise Him in the dance as well as in the song (Psalm 149:3).
The church as a whole is a collective term. It is not a selfish thing where it is just each individual person and God (and it never has been). God calls us a Body for a reason, so that we may edify and encourage each other along the way. We need each other (I Cor. 12:21). To say God's church just as He described does not exist is to call Him a liar because He says these will be present until we all come into the unity of the faith (that includes those who are saved as well as those who are yet to be saved).
Consider this. If I were to run a shelter for the homeless, people would applaud it. If I were to hand out food to hungry, folks would find that honorable. If I collect clothes for the needy, people would say it is a good thing. If the Church of God attempts to do these things, all of a sudden it becomes evil? People chime in and say it is not needed and is an unbiblical power grab? Such is of course foolishness. Just as there is the false, there is the real. Just as their is a Devil, there is an Almighty God. Jesus met the needs of the people to whom He ministered, and the church is to be His hands and feet.
It has always been God's plan for man not to be a singular unit (it is not "good" for man to be alone), but to abound in love with one another. This is why He instructed Adam & Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Please do not be mistaken in thinking that God had no order or organization in the beginning, for He did. Adam was the head, Eve was the help meet for him, and they had dominion over all other earthly creations. Even Israel had a temple with priests, services, and sacrifices. It is a good thing for brethren to dwell together in unity (Psalm 133:1).
The issue is not about whether the church has structure, for the Scriptures are clear that it does. The question is whether we are part of the kingdom of darkness or the kingdom of light.
I cannot beg people enough, PLEASE trust in the Lord and His work. This is not about any man. I am speaking about moving past the distrust and bitterness we have all experienced in the world (including the religious world) and letting God have His way in our lives. Let the Scriptures be the rule of thumb for what is of God; not our personal impressions, fears, or hurts.
God gave me an understanding on this very topic that I would like to share in case it blesses you or others: Perfect in One
May God bless & keep you!
Good Morning LDM,
DeleteI promise you the Holy Spirit told me you were going to rebuttal with what you just did before I even seen your response, God is so real it's unbelievable and I thank Him!!!. But Eph 4:11-13 doesn't validate the "church system" or religion (whore of babylon), it's simply saying there are people with spiritual gifts out there to help build up babes in Christ. The Body of Christ isn't a denomination nor people who congregate at a particular religious church building every week but IT IS THE TRUE BELIEVERS.
I read carefully everything you said and ufortunately once again you taking most of what I've said out of context, jumped to the wrong conclusions, and went on a tangent.
I pray that you re-examine your beliefs on what God's Will is for His People in how we are to worship Him, fellowship, and serve.
The spirit isn't leading me to rebuttal your points beyond this point even though I can with rightfully dividing scripture. But I'm praying for you as you stated you're praying for me.
Thanks for you time LDW and GiJane02 or anyone honestly ... if the spirit is leading you to dialogue with me any further. Please contact me at oneofakinddfw@yahoo.com. I'm more than willing.
Hi E,
DeleteIf not only for your sake, but for the sake of others as well, I respond. I can believe the Holy Spirit advised you of my response beforehand because what I wrote to you is the truth. If you will not receive it from me, then I pray you at least hear it from Him.
The words "Church system", "Denomination", & "building" weren't mentioned by me. You're reciting pre-formatted arguments which have nothing to do with what I said.
You are right that the Body of Christ is not a weekly congregation of believers...because the original church met daily (Acts 2:46; Acts 5:42; Acts 6:1). My point? Fellowship is not what you think.
"WHEN [not IF] ye come together therefore into one place..." I Cor. 11:20a
The regular communion of the saints was expected; further, it was longed for by its members. There were no rules or regulations about it (and there still aren't). It was nothing more than those who have been born again wanting to be with others of a like precious faith. Even the very epistles which comprise the Scriptures were written to, and read in, the "churches"; the gatherings of the saints. Does such activity define who is the ecclesia? No. However, as Min. Katz states in the linked article above, fellowship of the saints is the expression of the life & truth of God.
Paul was saved and taught by personal revelation from Jesus. But God instructed him to join in fellowship with other believers and present himself to the "churches" - even to the "church elders" - and he did (Gal. 1:15- 2:2). The goal of God is not to simply get it to be just each individual alone and Him (as you have stated), but to have us be one with each other the way that God is one.
Jesus said that where 2 or 3 are gathered, there He is in our midst. Why? Because He wants to promote the regular fellowship of His people (Heb. 10:25). This is why many of God's promises are corporate. To assert that such unity is not only unnecessary, but unavailable is in direct violation of the Spirit and word of God. It is by His Spirit that He has baptized us into one Body. If any spirit suggests otherwise, then I would surely test that spirit by the word of God (I Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:4). Not all spirits are the Holy Spirit.
What is interesting to me E, is that you claim you can respond with Scripture, but you don't. Why not? I don't say this to issue you a challenge. My point is that it doesn't matter what you think, I think, or anyone else thinks. I am not here to share my opinions (or ponder anyone elses), but to meditate on the word of God as one would mine for pure gold. Nothing else matters. When speaking of the things of God, why wouldn't one choose to go first to the Scriptures to see if the things believed are true? One of the benefits of fellowship is that it is a protection from drifting off into error and the wisdom of men.
Dear E, I wouldn't write this is I did not have real concern over the errors espoused above. Either way, it is not my words which matter. Please consider what the Scriptures have to say in this matter.
For those who want more on this topic, I recommend the following:
The Caretaker
This Idol Called the Institutional Church
Perfect In One
Prayer with the Saints
The Congregation, the Club, and the Church
Well sister I am blessed by the response you gave. I am traveling this weekend and I just began to look back over the past 5 years where I "threw the baby out with the bath water" on coming together with other believers. I was reluctant to go back to church regularly because of coming across other teachings about people that have left the church assembling together, about the institutional church being the harlot, etc. I made sure to find a church that was fundamental in teaching the Word of God, but reminding myself that nothing is going to be perfect. I was not growing in the Lord at all being away from assembling with other believers. I am growing more and the Lord is placing people in my life that have been challenging me in love to be a follower of Christ and be the disciple that He called all of us believers to be.
ReplyDeleteHi GIJane02,
DeleteThat is such a blessing to hear! And what you have said is the truth. God's plan for how we are to grow includes local fellowship.
I found out through many interactions with such persons that much of the whole "anti-IC" movement is undergirded by individuals who are hurt/bitter about past abuse in Babylon (even though they claim not to be). I have never seen so many "study" the Scriptures so intently with the purpose of stripping them of their natural meanings. They go deeply into the Hebrew or Greek to try and show why local fellowship is not needed when the plainness of the text clearly and repeatedly says that it is.
The word says that there is simplicity in Christ (II Cor. 11:3). So simple in fact that Jesus could pass by the "learned" religious leaders and choose uneducated fishermen to preach His Gospel. Truly they swallow a camel and strain at a gnat in attempting to dismiss God's word in this area. All that this can produce is a prideful renegade who refuses any Godly authority - including the Scriptures themselves - in deference to their own understanding. Such thinking is a cesspool for false doctrine. For example, the Holy Spirit would never inspire anyone to say that there is no Godly church in the earth. Just think about what that implies.
I think those promoting this have been ensnared in one of the most deadly deceptions around, because they actually think they have found some radical truth when it is just lies & perversions. Further, they simply cannot receive what the Scriptures say in the matter and therefore often neglect the word of God as a measurement for what is true.
I remember engaging in discussions with such persons in the past and one thing they would tell me is, "I don't have local fellowship. It is fellowship even when we get together on Facebook." While there may be an ability to edify one another over the Internet, that is not what the Scriptures mean when it references fellowship. There were no phones, no internet, no texting...The answer plainly is that the early church gathered together - even daily - to honor the Lord and encourage each other in the faith.
You are absolutely right in that there is no "perfect" church because there is no "perfect" individual - and the church is merely a gathering of individual believers. However the Lord has chosen such a vehicle (our fellowship together) as a means to perfect us all.
As soon as we dishonor God's word, we can be sure that we are not listening to God's Spirit because both the word and the spirit agree.
Amen Sis! Wow it's like you were living with me for the past five years, lol! You just added on to what the Lord has brought back over my mind about my walk in the last five years. God is truly merciful and He didn't have to open my eyes but He did, HALLELUJA!
ReplyDeleteAmen! He could have left us all right where we were, but thankfully He loved us enough not to.
DeleteHave a wonderful weekend Sister!