The purpose of the church is to reflect the life of Christ in the world. Unless you are transformed to bear the image of Truth - who is Jesus Christ - you will seek hopelessly to emulate this life. Being ignorant of this distinction, most church folks are walking in the flesh, but calling it walking in the Spirit. It is critical to know the difference.
I have some questions about this (not to be argumentative but to have a more complete understanding):
ReplyDeleteIf "the things of the flesh hold no appeal to those who are born after the Spirit", then does this mean that those who are truly saved will no longer commit a single sin ever again because things of the flesh have no power to appeal to them anymore?
Or if all sin is giving in to the things of the flesh in some manner, isn't that moment of weakness where we give in to temptation (and then subsequently have to ask for forgiveness) a moment where we found the things of the flesh at least temporarily appealing?
Hi Walter,
DeleteThanks for asking your questions brother.
You compare being "born after the Spirit" with "committing acts of sin". This is exactly the problem The Organic Gospel was written to address.
Religion will tell you that you must get saved and try to stop sinning. That is not the Gospel message. It leads to a life of emulations and outward performance because you are never really changed on the inside. Since many people haven't been born again, they are trying to justify the fact that they still "feel" the lusts of the flesh and separate that from salvation.
In salvation, God is not interested in us stopping acts of sin. He lays the ax to the root bringing us to life by His Spirit so that we can kill the one who is in covenant with sin, the old man. There is a difference between sinning and being in covenant to (enslaved by) sin.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:6-7
The Christian's focus is not on stopping external acts, but getting our nature changed. This can only happen as we crucify the Adamic nature and displace that by the new nature given by God so that we may truly become a new creature in Him.
I would highly recommend you read The Organic Gospel as it is not possible to address all of this sufficiently here. Don't try not to sin, but die to sin so that God can give new life. That is what salvation really is and what the Gospel will bring about in us if we submit to it.
These are also some resources which may help:
The Organic Gospel
Me Runs Deep
The Spirit of the Law - Part 7
Sin is Past
I Am Not A Sinner- Part 1
I Am Not A Sinner- Part 2
God Bless!
Thank you for your kind response.
DeleteI understand the distinction that you are drawing between slavery to sin and a new nature.
I believe that my original question revolves around some verses in James 1:12-15:
"12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
Verse 12 seems to indicate that the born again person will have to endure temptation until they receive their crown, and verse 14 seems to indicate that the born again person can still experience the lusts of the flesh and be enticed by them.
I guess the heart of my original question is this:
If the things of the flesh hold no appeal to the born again person, shouldn't that render the person immune to temptation? After a person has been born again, why do they continue to commit isolated acts of sin from time to time? What is the driving force that causes such sin if it is not the appealing nature of things of the flesh? After all, can we be tempted or enticed by things that hold no appeal to us any longer?
Hi Walter,
DeleteIf you look at the text again, James 1:12 does not say that we have to endure temptation until we receive our crowns. It says we have to endure temptation to receive the crown. Enduring is how we receive the crown.
Yes, there is a process of taking off the old man - and his lusts - and putting on the new man. That is why we need to patiently endure, because through it, God is correcting and perfecting us; showing us the areas in our souls where the old man still has a foothold. In our patience, we must take possession of our souls (Luke 21:19) and if we do not endure this chastening to be perfected, then we cannot be called sons of God (Heb. 12:6-11).
The word "tried" is the Greek word for approved. At some point, we are approved after having withstood the trial (Romans 15:18; I Cor. 11:19; II Tim. 2:15). This doesn't merely become a reality after we have physically died, but even while we live, so that Christ can live in us (Gal. 2:20). We are to be walking dead men, in terms of being dead to the entrapments of the world, so that we might bring life to others (II Cor. 4:10-12).
"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Ephesians 4:21-24
If we do not put of the old man as God commands, then we will feel its deceitful lusts and be drawn by those lusts into sin. Look at what God says in James 1. You are tempted because you are being drawn by your own lust. It is not the normal state for a Christian to have ungodly lusts (Rom. 13:14; Titus 2:12; I Pet. 1:14; II Pet. 2:18; II Pet. 3:3; Jude 1:18).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24
Your last statement is it in a nutshell. We cannot be enticed by that which holds no appeal to us. Or, as God says, "He who is dead is freed from sin". If worldly lusts still have appeal to us, it is the evidence that our old man is not yet crucified.
Paul spoke of this dichotomy in Romans Chapter 7. Having in his flesh that which wanted to pull him into sin, yet having a will not to sin in order to please God. Paul asks, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" His answer? Jesus Christ. Jesus is our Deliverer. We do not have to struggle with being enslaved to sin, but we can be delivered from it by killing the nature in covenant with sin.
The old man is either crucified or it is not. Sin is not an act, it is a nature.
"So, since Christ suffered in the flesh [a]for us, for you, arm yourselves with the same thought and [b]purpose [patiently to suffer rather than fail to please God]. For whoever has suffered in the flesh [having [c]the mind of Christ] is done with [intentional] sin [has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God], So that he can no longer spend the rest of his natural life living by [his] human appetites and desires, but [he lives] for what God wills." I Peter 4:1-2
Thank you...that makes sense.
DeleteThe appeal of worldly lusts is not taken away from us in a blink of an eye the first moment that we are saved, but it dwindles away over the course of time as we surrender to the Lord by dying to ourselves on a daily basis.
So while we can never reach perfection in this life, our rate of sin and its appeal to us should be continually decreasing as we are submitting to the process of being reborn by God's Spirit.
Sorry, but I kept pressing on the question because the video indicated that it is as a matter that our salvation hinges on, so I wanted to make sure that I understood the point.
Thank you for your response and your patience.
Hi Walter,
DeleteIt is absolutely a matter upon which our salvation hinges. We must be born again if we are to see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3-7).
Also note, the appeal of worldly lusts is never just "taken away from us". It is up to us to put off and crucify the old man. The rate by which this happens depends on each person's individual commitment to the Lord in them presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).
Those who belong to Christ have crucified (past tense) the flesh and its lust (Gal. 5:24). It is completely unscriptural to believe that the Christian life is one of continual and constant struggle with the sin nature.
Again, I would simply suggest reading the book, however, the following video from Min. David Pawson on the normal Christian birth.
The Natural Christian Birth
I will also post this video series on the blog to help others, because unfortunately, many do not understand what it means to be born again.
Mia's words - "Also note, the appeal of worldly lusts is never just "taken away from us". It is up to us to put off and crucify the old man. The rate by which this happens depends on each person's individual commitment to the Lord in them presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1)."
DeleteI am thankful to read these words Mia. Yesterday, the Pastor of my church asked me to speak. I shared a similar idea with the congregation, and I used Romans 12:1-2 to support that. I am not sure if all ears in the building yesterday readily received that, but it was nice to see those thoughts echoed here this morning. The Holy Spirit is surely on the move! From Georgia to Virginia! LOL
Hi Joy! I was actually thinking of you Sunday during church. Just look at you! Isn't it amazing how God grows us up? Yes, God is on the move, and I am glad to see it. :-)
DeleteAmen! Years before, I never envisioned myself standing in front of a group of people speaking about the regenerative work of Jesus Christ within us, but where I didn't envision it, the Lord surely did! To that I say, "Keep 'growing me up', Lord!" Blessings to you, Sis.
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