Saturday, March 22, 2014

Jesus Was and Is Eternally God

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11-12

One thing has certainly become clear as time moves on in these last days, and such is that the "narrow way" is becoming increasingly more narrow.   The text above doesn't just speak of people continuing in the same vein in which they currently are.  The word "still" is speaking of a progression; a furthering of degree or increase.  For example, "Let those who are unjust be even more unjust".  Why does God say this?  Because He is revealing the intents of the heart. 

You might have been able to fellowship before amongst people with whom you have only had minor doctrinal differences.  However, now those slight disagreements have somehow become insurmountable fissures as the depths of these differences are revealed.  God is forcing everyone to choose a side.  Be either hot or code, but lukewarm is getting spewed out of His mouth (Revelation 3:16).  He is cleaning up His Church and preparing His Bride for His return.

And as people begin to choose, you had better know where you stand.  You cannot believe in something just because another person says it is truth.  You must have the fortitude & discipline to study the word of God for yourselves and the ears to hear the Holy Spirit as He reveals its meaning to you.  Otherwise, deception will be so great that, if it were possible, even the elect will be deceived (Matthew 24:24).  You must know that you know who you know so that you can stand firm.

That stated, I wanted to take time to address a doctrine to which some have ascribed proclaiming that Jesus Christ is a created being.  Such a position is not supported by the Scriptures, and I would like to review why.   As we examine the Scriptures, we will see that:
  • Jesus existed with the Father prior to His incarnation
  • Jesus is the Creator of all things and nothing was created outside of His creative work
  • Jesus is both fully God and fully man
  • Jesus has the same divine nature as the Father, making Him equally God
  • Jesus' role in the Godhead does not impune His divine nature
  • Being firstborn denotes Jesus' preeminence, not His creation
  • Melchizedek is a type or figure for Christ
The Word AND The Only Begotten Son

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."  John 1:1-3,14

The above text offers two presentations of Jesus: One as the Word and the other as the only begotten of the Father.  From this, we can know that the existence of the "only begotten" preceded His being "made flesh".  In other words, Jesus was alive before His conception.

Jesus is fully God (Colossians 2:9) and fully man (Philippians 2:7).  He is both the Son of God and the Son of Man.  He is not more God than He is man nor more man than He is God.  Rather, each attribute exists in harmony with the other (referred to as the hypostatic union).

He was God Himself and existed "in the beginning" with God as the Word.  John sets forth the principle that the Word's existence coincides with that of the Father.  When God existed, we can know that the Word also was.  There is no reference to an age when God existed where the Word was not also in existence.  There is no mention of the Word being created.  This would be an incredible omission since the entire purpose of this text is to speak of the origins of Christ.  There is only the continued reassurance that when God was, the Word was with Him.

The fact that He is God's "begotten" Son does not imply that He has had a beginning to His existence. The word "begotten" refers to a uniqueness in relationship and/or kind.  While you and I can be made sons & daughters of God by adoption (Romans 8:15), we have a human nature.   The word "begotten" shows us that Jesus alone bears the same divine nature or essence of the Father.  We may become partakers of that nature, but we do not possess that nature as Jesus does (II Peter 1:4).

Not only did "the Word" exist prior to the conception of Jesus, but the Word has eternally been in relationship to the Father as a Son (I John 4:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).  How is this possible?  Because God Himself is outside of time and space.  It is moot to ask "when" Jesus became in relationship to the Father as a Son.  "When" is an argument of time that is not relevant to One who is eternal.  God does not experience time the way that we do (II Peter 3:8).

How could the Lamb be slain from "foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8)?  How could your name be written in the Book of Life from the "foundation of the world", before you were even born (Revelation 17:8)?  How has He chosen us from the "foundation of the world", before we have even done good or evil (Ephesians 1:4; Romans 9:11)?  How can God's work have been finished "from the foundation of the world" (Hebrews 4:3)?  How could our sins have been covered by His sacrifice when we had not yet committed them? Because God is in the past, present, and future all at the same time.  He is not limited by the construct of time.  Everything He has done has already been completed; we alone are the ones who must experience this through the lens of time.  We are waiting, but for God everything has already been done.

Further, we are told that "all" things were made by Him (the Word).  **Notice that "the Word" is not neutral or genderless the Word is a person (not a human), referred to as "Him".**  The word "all" references every single act of creation.  And just in case that was not clear enough, John reinforces this by stating that succinctly that without Him (the Word) was not any thing made which was made.   

This part of Scripture bears repeating: NOTHING was created outside of what Jesus Himself created.  So if Jesus was created, then did He create Himself?  If not, then at most He becomes the Creator of "most" things or "almost all" things, but certainly not the Creator of all.  Scripture is clear that all things in Heaven and Earth were created by Him (Colossians 1:16).  Nothing was created apart from what the Word Himself created.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." I John 4:2-3

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." II John 1:7

We can say that we have been born, but we cannot say that we have "come in the flesh".  This fact puts forth more than the knowledge that Jesus existed prior to being made flesh, confirming what John says in the Gospel.  It addresses Jesus' entire nature as being God Himself.  Understanding the true nature of Jesus as God is a critical doctrine of the faith and a litmus test for how we are to know who is of God and who is not.

Jesus' Role vs. Jesus' Nature

We must not confuse Jesus' role as a Son with His nature, which is divine.  Just because He is in submission to the Father as a Son does not mean He is somehow less God.  Being the Son of God necessitated that Jesus have the same divine essence of the Father (John 5:18).
God changes not, but is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8).  To believe that God at some point existed without Jesus means that God's very nature changed.

God is a trinity (I John 5:7).  There is God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son.

God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29; John 10:30; Galatians 3:20).  The members of the Godhead are one in mind, spirit, and purpose.

Go is love (I John 4:8).

God is righteous, holy and without sin (Numbers 23:19; Psalm 33:5, 99:9; I John 1:5).

God is Truth (John 14:16, 16:13).

God is all-powerful (Genesis 17:1; II Peter 1:3).

God is eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; I Timothy 1:17).  

These are just some of the attributes that pertain to the nature of God, however they are applicable to each member of the Godhead.  You cannot eliminate these attributes in one without at the same time denying His deity.

Keep this in mind: the things of this world were created to reflect and help us understand the things of God (Romans 1:19-20).  However, the standard is always God, not ourselves.  It is when we reverse this and start judging God by our reality that we run into error.

For example, some would say, "For God to be the Father, then that must mean He existed prior to the Son because we know that all fathers preexist their children."  This is an example of judging God by human standards.  You can see how faulty that logic is when you apply it to another example and say, "Because we know our fathers have a specific time when they were born, so God the Father must also have a beginning to His existence."  Truth is not defined by our human experiences, but truth is defined by the word of God. While the created things reflect the Godhead, they do not define God.

The word "Father" does not have to denote preexistence, but it can represent preeminence.  When Scripture refers to Abraham as being the "father of all who believe", it is not saying that Abraham preexisted everyone in the faith (Romans 4:11-16).  It is saying that he is being held as a preeminent example for those in the faith.

preeminence: The quality or state of having paramount rank, of being supreme over or greater than.

Not once does the Scripture ever say that the Father existed before the Son, but it does repeatedly state that the Father is greater than the Son (John 13:16, 14:28).  This echoes the truth of preeminence.  Similarly, Jesus being called "firstborn" does not mean that Jesus was created, but that He has preeminence amongst those who would follow Him - His brothers and sisters in the faith (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15).

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18

Examine the use of the term "firstborn" in Scripture.  In the New Testament, it is the Greek word prōtotokos, and means literally the first born.  It does not mean "first created".  If God had wanted to state that Jesus was the "first created", then the Greek word prōtoktizo would have been used, which literally means first created. 

The term "firstborn" is not used as a means to show that someone was created, but it speaks to the legal privilege or primacy of one who should receive an inheritance; it speaks of one's birthright (Genesis 29:26, 43:33, 48:14-19; I Chronicles 5:1, 26:10; II Chronicles 21:3). We know that Jesus was born (and that He preexisted His birth), but there is no Scripture which says He was created.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." Colossians 1:15-16

Jesus is the firstborn (not "first created") of all creation because He is our Forerunner (Hebrews 6:20).  He came in the flesh to be a sacrifice for our sin and to show us the way to the Father. 

Jesus being a Son to the Father as well as being a Brother to those in the faith does not mean that He was created.  In fact, we know from Scripture that He was not.

Melchizedek, No beginning and No end

We first hear of Melchizedek when Abram is returning with the spoils of war from rescuing the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.  And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all." Genesis 14:18-20

We see that this "King of Peace" was not "a" priest, but the priest  of the Most High God and he brought bread and wine to Abram.  Later we see that Jesus' priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek.

"The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." Psalm 110:4

"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 5:5-10

"Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 6:20

Hebrews Chapter 7 tells us a little more about this mysterious figure.

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually....And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.  " Hebrews 7:1-3, 15-17

Melchizedek is the King of righteousness.  He is the King of peace.  He is made like unto the Son of God, not having come into being by natural means and neither having beginning of days nor end of life. 

This same idea of a continuous existence without beginning or end is used in reference to Jesus when we are told that He "was, is, and is to come". 

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

Alpha and Omega refers to the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.  It is used to represent the entirety of something, just as we might say, "From A to Z."  There is nothing left out, but the thing described is comprehensive, all-inclusive.

Notice as well that Jesus is not merely "a" beginning, as if there is some existence apart from Him.  He is the beginning; there is nothing above or before Him. As John stated, in the beginning, the Word was with God.

"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.  And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:8-11

In simpler terms, this means that Jesus simply exists. He has no beginning and no end.  It is the same meaning that God gave to Moses as a descriptor, I Am that I Am (Exodus 3:14); and such also applies to Jesus.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

Scripture refers to Jesus as One who is in continuous existence, in the past, in the present, and in the future.  Jesus is the "Everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).  His goings forth have been "from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2), just like that of the Father (Psalm 93:2).

I don't care if someone says that God has given them special revelation that Jesus is created or if they claim the Scriptures have been mistranslated in this regard; you had better rely upon the Lord alone for truth in this matter.  It is no light thing to be in error about the nature of Christ's divinity.

As John says in the Gospel, the existence of the Father coincides with that of the Son.  The Word, the only begotten Son, was not a "created" being.

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11:4

Additional Resources:

Jesus' Divinity & His Humanity by Min. David Pawson

The Uniqueness of Christ - When Did His Life Begin? by Min. David Pawson

The Uniqueness of Christ - Who Did He Think He Was? by Min. David Pawson

The Word Became Flesh by Min. David Pawson

The Wonders of Jesus' Story- His Birth by Min. David Pawson

The Wonders of Jesus' Story - His Conception by Min. David Pawson


  1. This post is a very abbreviated and concise portrayal of the biggest Truth in all of
    Christendom. Who is Yahshua (Jesus the Christ)?

    Very well stated, and accurately researched. So many today seem to come up
    with private revelations, just as the cults before them, that Christ Jesus was not
    Who, He Himself, stated He was and is - the preexistent Son of God. YHVH is
    Jehovah. And Jehovah is the Christ. Truly God is One, distinct in three, yet
    equal in character and Personhood. Many claim 3 persons in One, and while I believe
    that to be in error, as the Son did and said only that which He saw the Father do and say,
    and likewise the Spirit is that of Jesus Christ - thereby just One Person in three forms, it does not matter if one subscribes to the Trinity necessarily, as long as one acknowledges
    that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh. He is not subservient to the Father in stature but in
    form. That is just as you say - the Son is the Father manifested in human flesh, not a
    created being borne from the Father and thereby with a beginning and end as some false
    teachers very deceptively seek to persuade the simple-minded.

    The Godhead is infinite. The mind of man is not. Therefore we cannot pretend to grasp mysteries that are minds are unable to grasp. And we must be ever mindful of spirits parading about as holy when they are not.

    May this great article give rise to a renewed faith in the Person and character of Jesus
    Christ the Righteous, the One and only God.


    1. Hello JP,

      Your comment gave me a chuckle, because when I posted this, I thought, "This is way too long. No one is ever going to read it." So I am glad you think it is abbreviated. LOL

      You are surely correct however in that this post by no means does justice to the topic. Hopefully it can just be an aid to each individual's personal study time.

      Years ago, I conversed for a while with someone who did not believe in the Trinity and I began to wonder if it was an essential doctrine or not. Then, the Lord showed me that I was asking the wrong question. The issue was not, "Is this essential to believe?", but the issue was, "What is the truth?" He led me to understand that it was not for me to say which truths were essential, but that I simply be a witness to the truth as He has shown it to me.

      One of the clearest depictions of the Trinity for me is seen in Matthew 3:16-17, where you have Jesus the Son of God being baptized, the Holy Spirit as a dove descending upon Him, and God the Father proclaiming that this was His Son. These are 3 simultaneous presentations of God in different persons.

      I also find evidence of the Trinity throughout Scriptures. One of the more exciting reflections I saw years ago is in Genesis 18, which states in part:

      "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:" (verses 1-3)

      The words for "Lord" used in this text are first "Jehovah" and then "Adonai". It says that Jehovah appeared to Abraham in the form of 3 persons. Somehow Abraham knew this was the Lord and throughout the Chapter only references the "Lord" in the plural of "Adonai". Apart from Abraham's words, the text however, always references "Lord" as "Jehovah". The whole chapter is actually very revealing in terms of the nature of God, especially in verse 22 when the Lord goes down to see about Sodom, but at the same time the Lord stays behind as Abraham pleads with Him. Again, testifying to different, distinct persons of the Godhead.

      I don't think I have written explicitly about the Trinity, but my pastor has. For those who seek to look at this more closely, perhaps the following would help:

      Do You Believe in the Trinity

      Perfect in One

      God Bless!

  2. I would have to agree with your statement that the Trinity is not an essential doctrine in order for one to be labeled an Orthodox Christian. There is so much confusion and differentiation today and for centuries that I simply relegate it to, as you say, a matter of what is Truth?

    While I may lean more toward a non-Roman Catholic view of God, I do not strongly debate the point of the Trinity, as it means different things to different sects and denominations.

    For me, I tend toward the pre-Nicene view of God, which portrays God as existing fully in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but as one will, not three distinct personalities. That is, there is an order to God. And while He descended in the form of a man, (the Son), God is truly a Spirit. So while many see the Dove as representing the Holy Spirit, how could a physical dove actually contain the entirety of the Spirit of God for He is omnipresent? Likewise, how could Jesus Christ fully contain the Father when the Father is depicted as a Spirit? It's all past our finite minds to fully comprehend.

    So while I can see your points and would not argue against them, at the same time, I do not perfectly align with the Augustine view of a Trinity in the sense of three distinct persons.

    My view understands the Father and the Word (Son) and the Spirit to be only One. I realize this is what many say when they term this "the trinity" - but when you get down to it, many Christians today actually believe the Spirit, for example, is to be prayed to and addressed, most notably in song, as a Person separate from Jesus Christ and the Father. Others completely dismiss the Word and think it appropriate to approach only the Father. Still others are termed 'oneness' or Jesus 'only' folks.

    When perhaps the Elohim, while plural, is simply one "Theos" or Divinity in different forms or essences rather than 3 distinct and individual personalities.

    Again, it's hard to be grasped. And I don't pretend to begin to understand it. I just find it more palpable to believe that God is One and there is no distinction in Person just position.
    That is, God the Father is above God the Son. And God the Son had to ascend to the Father in order for the Comforter to descend, meaning, is the Holy Spirit a Dove or was the dove only a physical representation of His Spirit as a witness to those present?

    I'm sure we'll have a better grasp of all this once we dine fully in His Holy Presence. Until then, I am content to eat here along with Trinitarians, Binitarians, and Unitarians as long as all of us concur that Jesus Christ, (the Son) is Theos, the "Word" become flesh. And while He was contained in the body of a human being, he is YHVH.

    The early church fathers presented this picture:

    Imagine the Father as the orb of the Sun. The Son as the orb's light and radiance and the Holy Spirit as the "fire" or heat of the orb. While the three have different forms they all are One in the same. Without the orb the Son would not exist - without the light, the heat would not exist.

    I think where people tend to go astray is when they try and define God in human terms and understanding.

    1. Hi JP,

      Thanks for your comments. I was actually saying that the whole notion of essential or non-essential doctrine is off based. Who is man to say what is necessary to believe or okay to deny about the truths of God? I don't know of any person qualified to make such distinctions, and I would never attempt to.

      For me, things are very simple. Opinions of men and religious organizations matter little. The crux of the matter is, "What does God's word say?"

      If the Scriptures say that the Spirit descended as a dove, then I believe it. If Scriptures say that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the godhead bodily, then I believe it. If Scriptures say that there are 3 who bear record in Heaven - the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, then I believe it. It is not for us to figure out the "how", but to simply believe what God says.

      Honestly, I don't find the concept of the Trinity hard to grasp at all. It makes sense on many levels and the Scriptures are replete with evidences for it. However, as you say, it is not something I would argue about only because I don't argue about anything. There is no point. The Holy Spirit is more than able to reveal truth to our hearts if we are open to receiving it, which I pray that we are.

      Thanks again!

  3. I'm with you and I think we're both in the same book, just on different pages. And as a quick aside concerning the godhead. This has been a crux of so many misunderstandings over the centuries. My hope is only that more people will dig in deep as so many tend to read our English Bibles today as though current understandings define ancient meanings. What a word means in Greek is not always rendered perfectly when translated into English.

    For example, the typical understanding is that the Godhead is the Elohim, or the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I.e, the 'Trinity'. However, in the original language godhead meant something completely different. Something the churches have misconstrued for centuries. In fact, godhead only appears in the Bible a few times, (and then as a misunderstanding in archaic Elizabethan English, ref. Wycliffe's Translation.)

    Simply put, 'godhead' simply means 'theos' or divinity. These verses simply state, in essence, that Jesus Christ is deity, or God. So instead of thinking of 'godhead' as synonymous with 'trinity' - it actually means 'godhood' or 'divine nature'. So when we read that in Christ Jesus dwelt the fulness of the godhead, are we reading into that 'Trinitarianism' or are we seeing that it simply is defined as in Jesus Christ dwells the complete fullness of 'divinity'? Likewise, the verses in 1 John are well known to have originated no sooner than the 5th century as they do not appear in any earlier manuscripts nor are they mentioned by the early church fathers.

    It is important to understand how we got our Bibles. And as we study we learn that not all is at is seems.

    This isn't to take away from God's Word at all - or to cast doubt upon it, but only to encourage study. And when we do we can see how doctrines and philosophies have crept into the church since the first century that may very well not be true to Apostolic teachings nor faithful to the original Greek..

    Anyway, I know that opens a can of worms and for many, it is not worth the effort to explore. But if you're so inclined, perhaps a simplified study would be in order?

    That is why whether one holds to a Roman/Latin version of the "Trinity" or an anti-Nicene version of 3 in 1, it is important to understand that there are heretical views in both camps and men have been debating this issue for 2,000 years, so I suspect today is no different.

    What's important is no matter our concept of what may be correct or incorrect concerning God, one thing must be acknowledged in order to be considered orthodox - and that is, do we assign to Christ Jesus His due reverence as the immutable Son of God?

    1. Hi JP,

      This has turned into quite the conversation from your initial comment. LOL

      I agree completely that we must study to show ourselves approved and that this is often sorely missing as a component of people's faith. We must know why we believe what we believe so that we can stand. This cannot happen apart from arduous study and spending time with the Lord.

      In terms of how we got our Bibles, I know that the Lord is faithful. He has promised to provide His word as a source of truth for His people and He has. I further trust that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, He is able to enlighten the mind to understand His word & be transformed by it, while at the same giving us the will to walk in it.

      Studying Scripture, however is not a one verse application; we must take the whole of God's word to have the whole counsel of truth. This is why His truths are never relegated to one verse. Having been written by one mind - namely the mind of God - we see a beautiful quilt-like pattern of God's purposes and character throughout all of Scripture. The same is true for the trinity. Even the one example that I pointed out above in Genesis 18 shows without doubt that the Lord Jehovah appeared to Abraham as 3 distinct persons. And that is just one of many examples. So no, we should never establish truth on simply one verse, but by the mouths of 2-3 witnesses may a matter be established (and there are certainly more than such in support of the Trinity).

      My main concern is not even to be considered "orthodox" or to stay within a realm of what might be so considered. While church history is important in terms of helping to show how we have gotten here today, even what men have tended to believe or agree upon historically is not the standard of truth. The word of God itself remains the only standard.

      Believe me, there was a time many years ago when I was really into that. I was studying a lot of the early church father's writings and that of the Protestant Reformers, trying to find a foundation for truth within them. I thank God that He pulled me away from that. Not that there is anything wrong with that type of study, but it all simply boils down to the understandings of man - including all the flaws and shortcomings which go along with that. If there is any truth reflected therein, then the same Holy Spirit who revealed it to them then could reveal it to me now. God is no respecter of persons. Why make my standard what men have tended to believe about God when I can study the words of God Himself and find out directly from Him who He is? So while it can be interesting and enlightening to read such things, it is not for me a standard to which I try to adhere.

      In all, yes, without a doubt Jesus is the Son of God and is God; He has been since the very beginning and will continue to be. There is none other by which man must be saved.

  4. Ok, that was quite a response and we shall leave it at that. I am quite content with our understandings and since we are mostly in agreement the matter can be laid to rest. I totally understand your position and respect that as Christians each of us are a part of a bigger body. A body which worships the God of heaven and earth. Amen.


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