Where are the Men (and Women) of God?
It is alarming how many professing Christians in these last days have no understanding of Godly authority. Although such may seem sound in other areas of the faith - they simply fall apart at a biblical understanding of God's authority. As a result, many are wishy-washy; unable to stand unequivocally for the things of God and following every whim, every false spirit, because they are spiritually blind.
Some claim that there is no authority in the church and completely reject organized fellowship as they go rogue in a "I am just led by the Spirit" perspective. Another extreme is to simply submit to anyone who claims to be "called" without regard for Godly standards about church leadership. Yet, one of the most common expressions - and perhaps the very foundation - of this blindness is what God notes in Malachi Chapter 4: a rejection of patriarchy.
Throughout His word, God proclaims that the authority ordained by Him is reflected in patriarchy. Yet, those who dispute this come up with every contrivance to rebel. They paint God's commands as a "Gospel of Bigotry" and fashion "another" god to worship after their own imaginations (II Corinthians 11:4). They claim the Scriptures have been perverted over time so as to unrighteously hold back the gifting in women. They dismiss God's commands about women's submission as only relevant for a particular time in church history.
Malign God's word...malign God's character...anything but accept that God says what He means, and means what He says. In rejecting God's word/authority, such people are in fact rejecting Him. God tells us that a rejection of patriarchal authority will lead to a curse on His people (Malachi 4:5-6), and we can see the affects of this curse on society today...even within the churchworld.
"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
If the head of every man is Christ (I Corinthians 11:3), then by default, those males submitting to or promoting female headship are NOT qualified to be called men...according to the Scriptures. A wise man will consider the input of his wife (Genesis 21:12), but he will only be ruled by, and take commands from, the Lord. Man's first sin was in fact replacing the headship of the Lord with the headship of his wife (Genesis 3:17).
Why do we have "ministers" in the church committing adultery, pedophilia, theft, and every corruptible work? Why do we have men and women who support such persons and make excuses for their sins? Why do we have so many rejecting God's word to do that which is forbidden? Because people have no respect for the structure, purpose, and blessings of Godly authority and therefore have no identity in Him. The church has largely lost an appreciation/understanding of patriarchy; which is the essence of who God is - a Father. Many professing Christians are walking around in a spirit of fatherlessness, even while claiming to be a child of God. Scripture calls such individuals "disobedient" and commands them to turn so that they might be received by the Lord (Luke 1:17).
Can we not see that the root of people's problem with submission to God is that they are fatherless (Jeremiah 3:14-15, 23:1-4)? Do we not know that one of the primary reasons Jesus came was to restore in man the knowledge and gratitude for God as a Father (Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 1:18, 14:9)?
All of this compromise and all of this confusion is enough to turn one's stomach. I, for one, am not going to stand with a liar! I am not going to say "peace" when there is no peace! I am not going to shut my mouth because the truth of God makes some uncomfortable. The Body of Christ is under attack from within, and if we hold our peace, then how shall the lost be saved (Romans 10:14)?
According to Malachi 4:5-6, the last days ministry of the church is the spirit of Elijah calling for the people to return to patriarchy. Where are the men and women of God calling for a return to Godly authority, in the home and in the church? Where are those saints of God who are not ashamed to confront Ahab's abdication and Jezebel's illegitimate authority over God's people? Where is the remnant who has not bowed the knee to Baal, but will boldly proclaim, "The Lord is God!"?
It is such persons whom God chooses to raise His children, both of physical and spiritual seed.
"Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace" Acts 18:9b
In the picture of fatherhood, God gives us the pattern for understanding who He is, the authority He walks in, and how He interacts with His children. Without such an anchor in our hearts, if we fail to understand the significance of God as a patriarch, then we wind up making of ourselves bastards (Hebrews 12:6-8).
The following message from Pastor Zac Poonen called "Being a Godly Father" is about the importance of restoring true fatherhood in the church. As he examines God's word on this topic, I pray that it allows people to have a greater appreciate for who God really is so that we may turn away from idols towards worshiping the Father - in spirit and in truth.
- Parents, especially fathers, have a serious responsibility to represent God the Father to their own children so that they will come to know God and His ways.
- God prepared Abraham to be a blessing to the nations of the earth by calling him to command his children and family to keep the way of the Lord so that God could bring to pass all of the promises He had made to Abraham (Genesis 18:18-19). There are things that God has even promised us, but first He is going to test us with our children; whether we learn to command them to obey and walk in God's ways.
- In Abrahan's offering of Isaac, we not only see Abraham's obedience to God, but his son's obedience to him. The respect by which Abraham's son obeyed his father illustrates that Abraham had in fact been faithful in commanding his household in the things of the Lord.
- On the other hand, Eli the priest (the top religious head in Israel) raised his own sons to be worthless men (I Samuel 2:12). For this, God blamed Eli for honoring his sons above Him and God took the ministry away from him and gave it to Samuel.
- Samuel was so busy in the work of the ministry that he neglected his responsibilities at home in raising his sons. Samuel appointed his sons to be judges in the land, but like Eli's sons, they too did not follow after the ways of the Lord.
- The first step to being a Godly father is to be a Godly husband. God did not listen to the prayers of Israel because God has seen the way men treat their wives and their children (Malachi 2:14).
- We can take God's promises for our children and grandchildren to prayer, believing that these promises will be fulfilled in their lives.
"And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isaiah 54:13
"As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever." Isaiah 59:21
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6
- We are responsible for the way we bring up our children. I Timothy 3:4-5 says one of the conditions for leadership in God's house is the way a man brings up his children. Such is a qualification for church leadership.
- Children often go astray because they see hypocrisy in the parents.
- The beauty of the Lord our God as a Father is that He is both kind and strict (Romans 11:22). Being a good father requires both discipline and instruction (Ephesians 6:4), just as God chastens us (Hebrews 12:6-8, Revelation 3:19).
- For those whose children have gone astray, Matthew 18:19 promises that if two of us agree on one thing, it shall be done. Join with your wife and pray for your wayward child to come back to God, that they be born again and become disciples of Jesus.
- For those with Godly children, know that it is not because of you; all credit is due to God. Do not boast, for if it were not for the mercy of God, your children would be wayward too. Do not despise those whose children have gone astray; if you cannot pray for them, then keep your mouth shut.
- For single mothers, II Timothy 1:5 says that Timothy got his own faith from his mother and grandmother. It is the example of his mother's ways toward the Lord which allowed faith to come into his heart, even when a Godly father was not present.
- For all parents, we need to call upon God for wisdom and pray to be filled with the Spirit in order to know how to raise our children.
This seems to be the most overlooked and MOST important issue needing to be addressed on many levels not only in the Body but also in society. Also seems to be foundation the Lord has been showing me to look into. With the increase of women in leadership rising and the decrease of men who have abdicated and are now supporting women leading turning the hearts back to the fathers will certainly take a miracle. Our hoe is definitely in the Lord.
ReplyDeleteHi HannielOnline,
ReplyDeleteI agree! Too many people call themselves "Christian", but have no care for the things of the Lord and even actively fight against Him while claiming to be His servant...especially in this area.
Our hope MUST be in the Lord as you state.
Dear Latter Days,
ReplyDeleteWhile I thought your article was very good and I do submit to my husband and he submits to GOD, we do not go to church. We have been to every denomination and visited many churches. I wish there were some 'organized' fellowship we could be a part of, but there is none.
Dee
Hi Dee,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you mean and we actually get that comment a lot. I don't know where you and your husband reside, but I compiled a short list of various ministries which we connect with in order to feed our spirits and enjoy fellowship: Ministry Resources
I cannot say that I am in agreement with everything taught by the ministries featured, but I have found enough meat there to recommend others search them out.
Also, if none of these are near you, a number of them do live streaming for their messages and you can always participate virtually.
This article was posted in a FB group. I'm just posting here what I posted there.
ReplyDeleteThis article is a quite difficult to follow in a logical fashion. But I'll try and focus on address your central statement: "God tells us that a rejection of patriarchal authority will lead to a curse on His people (Malachi 4:5-6), and we can see the affects of this curse on society today...even within the churchworld."
1. Firstly, it is not clear what you mean by "patriarchal authority" because you give no definition. You go on and on with this reference, as if it is mentioned in scripture (and it is not).
2. You said that "God tells us" that "rejection of patriarchal authority" leads to a curse. But again, you never defined "patriarchal authority". Also, Malachi 4 makes NO MENTION of a curse being brought onto the Christian because of "rejection of patriarchal authority". This appears to be a concept you made up out of whole cloth.
3. Finally, you talk about "the effects of the curse", you seemingly fail to understand that Malachi was speaking to ISRAEL. And whatever the "curse" was there would be upon THAT nation for failing to "remember the law of Moses" (Mal 4:4). So you just completely took that scripture OUT OF CONTEXT.
That's about all I can say on this. Again, I'm not sure what your point is, but your line of thinking is not clear and you are wrong about your interpretation of SEVERAL verses/passages you referenced.
Hello Kevin,
ReplyDeleteThank you for bearing with any shortcomings there might be in the article in terms of facilitating your ability to digest what is written.
While I am happy to address your questions/comments, I must ask, "How long will you continue to kick against the pricks? Are you not yet ready to stand up as a man of God and let Him purge you from this inordinate attachment you have to matriarchy?"
I tell you that you will not be made whole in Him until you do; and attempting to twist God's words so as to deny what saith the Lord will be no excuse in that day. The same spirit that is in these "pulpit preachers" is the spirit which allows professing Christians to stand against Godly authority in the church & home. It is perversion.
I implore you, seek the Lord's heart in this matter; seek the heart of the FATHER. Submit to the FATHER of spirits and live. When you deny the words of the Father, you deny Him.
I don't care what you think of me or my ability to be "logical". This is not about me at all, but about God and HIS truths.
Yet, if the word of God continues to offend you, then save your time & effort; don't bother posting here again. You know where I stand and I am not going to modify God's word to appease any man or woman.
As for your comments, is the word "Trinity" in the Scriptures? Even so, is not the concept such describes biblical? If you need more understanding about the biblical basis of God's authority resting in patriarchy, please see the following:
Biblical Manhood
Our Father
Don't Forget Deborah
Confronting the Spirit of Jezebel
As to the curse which God says will come on those who reject patriarchy, please see Malachi 4:5-6 and Luke 1:16-17. Consider as well what is the "great and dreadful day of the LORD" of which this curse is a precursor.
Lastly, while God's words were given to Israel since they were His people, the words are not only relevant for Israel. He states in verse 6 that the "earth" will be smited with that curse; not just Israel. The curse is not because of people failing to follow the law (such is only a symptom of the real issue). The real issue for the curse is stated in verse 6; a failure to respect the authority of the fathers. That is patriarchy. If they knew & loved God as a Father, then they would obey His commands (John 14:21-23, 15:10; I John 2:5).
Feel free to share my response on the referenced FB posting as you choose.
Thank You
This article fails to point out that Jesus did not die for a church building, he died for people and people ARE the church, in greek, meaning "called out ones," so everytime you see the word "church" you have to change the meaning and read the scripture with understanding. As new covenant believers we are no longer under man-centered authority, because with Jesus' death it ripped man's authority & gave it back to God, where we now have access to God, without a man, going on our behalf. If the church building understood this, it would not be article like this trying to guilt people into something God never intended.
ReplyDeleteHello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteAs the article states, "It is alarming how many professing Christians in these last days have no understanding of Godly authority."
If you feel "guilty", then perhaps it is the conviction of God's Holy Spirit with which you should be concerned?
In any case, your comments are completely false and hold not even one scintilla of biblical foundation.
How can a "building" have authority? How can a "building" lead God's people? Such is foolishness.
I have personally found that those who go on & on about the church not being a "building" are some of the most bound folks around. They falsely believe that coming out of a building means they have been freed, not understanding that they are still trapped in Babylon in their own hearts.
If you truly understood that the church is a "called out" people then you would recognize the government that God has established within it.
Perhaps there are some texts of the "new covenant" with which you need to become familiar:
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17
"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Hebrews 13:7
"I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,) That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth. " I Cor. 15:16-17
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord." Ephesians 5:22
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord." Col. 3:18
"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you." I Thess. 5:12
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." I Thess. 5:17
submit: hypotassō; to yield to one's admonition or advice, to subject one's self, obey, to subordinate.
rule: proïstēmi; to be over, to superintend, preside over.
Those are awfully funny words for God to use if He no longer invests His authority in man for the purposes of serving His church.
Do not confuse the efficacy of Christ's atonement with Godly authority. The only authority which exists is that which is given by God, both in the church and in the world (Dan. 5:21; Prov. 21:1; Rom. 13:1-2).
People are so busy trying to have a "church folk" revolution that they have completely missed the message of the Gospel and trampled God's word in order to retain their own idols. As a result, they can only offer the people bondage, even while promising them liberty.
The spirit of fatherlessness is truly reaching epidemic proportions in the church. People reject God's authority (including such reflected in man) because they have no understanding of God as a Father. I can only leave you with the words in Malachi 4:5-6.
May God have mercy and lead you into the truth, to really come to know & serve Him and not the vanity of man's religious mind.
Then what about the scripture that instructs slaves to obey their masters?
ReplyDeleteHi Crystals,
ReplyDeleteAre you asking how people can claim that all authority invested in man has been "taken away" in Christ while at the same time God instructs slaves to obey masters?
I guess like the other Scriptures, such text is just ignored. People see what they want to see, and vice versa.
God's word is clear and - by His Spirit - there is simplicity in Christ. Only the carnal mind can make it convoluted.
I really don't understand what you mean by "patriarchal authority".
ReplyDeleteI know that "patriarchy" can refer to: a) the supremacy of the father in a family, b) male-dominated rule of society in general. In scripture, "patriarchy" refers also to the authority and tradition of the prophets (Abraham, Moses and David were called "patriarchs").
So I'm not dumb nor am I trying to be difficult -- I get what "patriarchy" means. What I don't understand is in what SENSE is you are using the term. You quote Malachi 4 -- which refers to the authority and tradition of the law and the prophets -- to make some kind of commentary about organized worship, church leadership, and the submissiveness of women. In other words, you attempt to build a case on a passage's meaning taken OUT OF CONTEXT.
Malachi 4 has NOTHING TO DO with the father/child relationship or male-dominated rule. To be more specific Malachi 4:6 is talking about Israel's REPENTANCE. In fact, when the angel appeared to Elizabeth, it quoted that very verse in relation to JOHN THE BAPTIST:
"And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord..." - Luke 1:16-17
So again, I think you should take another look at what you've written here, because your points -- IN MY OPINION -- are neither not well-articulated nor supported.
Hello Kevin,
ReplyDeletePatriarchy - in the economy of God - is not what you have listed at all. What you describe are reflections of patriarchy, not the substance.
God is the essence of patriarchy because He is the Supreme Patriarch, the Everlasting Father. As stated above, all authority originates from the Father. To understand His authority, you must see through His eyes. Otherwise, we are simply left with man's "opinions", which are of no eternal value.
While Malachi 4 is certainly relevant to Jesus' first coming, it is not limited to such. This is why that Chapter starts (verses 1-3) by speaking of the "coming" day when the world will be burned and all unrighteousness judged (II Peter 3:10). It specifically references "the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (verse 5). This was not the day when Jesus was born or the time He lived in earth.
The bottom line is that the same problem that existed in Jesus' days will exist at the end of time (now): people having rejected God's authority as a Patriarch.
If you do not realize that all authority stems from that, then you will not understand HOW people are to be "made ready" or "prepared" for the Lord's coming; by "turning the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers", (Luke 1:16-17).
The spirit of Elijah is always the forerunner to Christ, calling people to repentance and standing against that rebellious spirit of Jezebel; and so it will be in the end as well (Rev. 2:20).
The Scriptures say that the Bride of Christ will have made herself ready when Jesus comes again (Rev. 19:7). I pray that all will heed that call.
For those with ears to hear, let them hear.
this is some good Latte Material
ReplyDeleteHi Djuan,
ReplyDeleteI hope you and the family are well! If you are still stuck on vanilla lattes, then we need yo have a discussion of another kind. LOL!
You lost me with "the economy of God" reference. I'll just leave that alone for now, and move on to something of particular interest.
ReplyDeleteYou said "all authority originates from the Father". That is obviously NOT TRUE.
Like the centurion in Matthew 8, I have been a man under authority with troops under me when I served in the US Marines. So in the military context, I understand 'authority' very well. And while serving, I took an oath to obey NOT any order -- but only LAWFUL orders.
So if, say a colonel, told me to go and give another Marine a "code red" [like in the movie "A Few Good Men" with Tom Cruise] I'd be bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the US Constitution NOT to obey him -- even though the colonel is a member of the "patriarchal authority" structure. I'd have a DUTY to not only KNOW the law, but to think rationally and independently. So then above all else, it is THE LAW that is the authority and that which I obey -- not the "patriarchy".
So again, this point of yours about "all authority" being from God is erroneous on its face -- along with certain notions of yours regarding "patriarchy". You said, that according to Malachi 4:5-6, "the last days ministry of the church is the spirit of Elijah calling for the people to return to patriarchy". Well, that passage refers prophetically to John The Baptist -- and that WAS NOT his ministry. Rather, John The Baptist preached the following: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” So just as I explained before, Malachi 4:5-6 is NOT concerned with "patriarchy" (as you've described it) or anything all all related to "church leadership". It is about heeding the call to repentance made by The Prophets.
You are talking as if going to church and doing everyting the pastor says, or going home and doing what one's husband says is going to fix mankind's problem. And that just isn't true -- it's fantasy thinking. The only way any legitimate authority is obeyed is when people repent -- that is, they have a change of mind and behavior, and turn from Satan and towards Christ, as a result of being confronted with or exposed to God's truth.
I might also add that you keep talking about this "patriarchal authority" as if that is the only structure through which God's legitimate authority is reflected. And of course, that isn't true either.
ReplyDeleteThere are countless examples in scripture where God's authority was reflected, carried out, and or communicated through non-patriarchal and non-hierarchical means.
We can talk about when Nathan the prophet confronted David. We can also talk about the prophetess Deborah and her rule over Israel. We can talk about Jesus Christ Himself.
Hi Kevin,
ReplyDeleteYou certainly do seem to be lost, as your assertions are not what I have stated. The answer to your confusion is so obvious that I can only sit and wonder why you are so blind to it.
The ONLY type of authority that exists is that which is "lawful". In simpler words, unlawful authority equates to "NO authority"; it is illegitimate.
A police officer may have the authority to pull over my car and question me. He does not have the authority to rob me. His authority ends with the boundaries of the law. If he moves beyond that point, his actions become unlawful. Why? Because he has stepped outside of the bounds of his authority.
So your assertion that all authority does not come from God because illegitimate authority exists is nonsensical. Again, the only type of true authority there is, is that which is legitimate or lawful.
God never commits sin (breaking the law) and His laws are a reflection of His patriarchal nature. Even you acknowledged above that the call for Israel in Malachi 4 to turn the hearts back to the fathers was a call for them to honor the law. It all goes hand in hand because God Himself is a Patriarch. The law reflects this patriarchy as does the authority He places in the home and church.
You present your case based on your own personal experiences and observations. I gave you the word of God (Dan. 5:21; Prov. 21:1; Rom. 13:1-2). This is the difference between you and me Kevin. You prefer to bounce around the opinions/ideas of men. I prefer to rely on the word of God. Unless you decide to make God's word your standard of truth - vs. your personal opinions - then you will never understand what I say.
I have already shown you by the text in Malachi 4 that the events being addressed were not only for Jesus first coming, but also in regards to His second, the "day of the Lord." You should probably attempt to get understanding about the concept of "dual prophecies" as it sounds like you have not heard of such.
I have already posted above much Scriptural info regarding patriarchy and the type of authority which is Godly versus that which is demonic, soulish, and illegitimate (matriarchy).
If you still have sincere questions, feel free to use the contact form at the top of the blog to submit them and I will respond. I see no point however in continuing to approve comments that contain more personal diatribes than Scriptural insight.
Truly Satan has blinded the minds of many in the world, but God is able more than able to give light. May God break those bondages which blind people to the truth so that all who sincerely seek for righteousness may be filled.
Hi Kevin,
ReplyDeletePatriarchal authority is the ONLY means through which God's authority is seen. All else is illegitimate. There is not even one example in Scripture where such is not the case.
Nathan walked in patriarchy. His very name means "God has given". He represented the will of God and was given God's words to speak to Israel as a representative of God's authority. Only one who was not castrated by a matriarchal spirit could stand up against David's indiscretion.
Deborah walked in patriarchy. Although she was a judge, she did not overstep her bounds as a woman nor complain that her role was curtailed unlike every other judge because she had a patriarchal heart (a respect for the fathers). Not only did she chastise Barak for giving his glory to a woman, she specifically stated that her heart was towards the men leading the battle (Judges 5:9).
Jesus walked in patriarchy. He came not to do His own will, but to do His Father's will. Jesus came not in His own name or authority, but in the authority of His Father.
It is abundantly clear that you do not understand what Biblical patriarchy is Kevin. And I don't say that with any sort of condemnation. Instead of arguing about it, why don't you ask God to give you wisdom & understanding in the matter. He is faithful to do that if we sincerely ask.
I responded to this comment because you posted it prior to my response above. However, again, I ask if you have further questions to please send them via the contact form. I don't want to blow up the comments here with repetitive discussions which have already been addressed.
Thank You
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18
ReplyDeleteIn order for the Father to give "all" power to Jesus, He must be in possession of "all" power.
The word for power here is exousia which means:
"power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases; the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege); the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)."
Exousia means authority and as I stated, all authority comes from the Father. There is no authority outside of Him. Even Satan (in his illegitimate authority) only does what God allows.
The only true authority that exists in Heaven and earth is that which is of the Father.
I heard the program you did with Djuan and I've re-read this article and your responses. I understand and have agreed from the beginning with your point that all legitimate authority descends from God.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do NOT understand is your reasoning on certain things:
"Some claim that there is no authority in the church and completely reject organized fellowship as they go rogue in a "I am just led by the Spirit" perspective..."
▪ I don't know anyone who has ever said there is "no authority" in the church. I most certainly do not believe that, and would like to know who you have heard say that. Nor have I ever heard anyone completely reject organized fellowship. What I HAVE heard of is people rejecting the notion that "organized fellowship" can only take place by assembling -- under compulsion -- at a designated place and time, and performing rituals and tasks at the direction of others that are neither authentic worship or have no basis in scripture. So I guess my question is: What is wrong with rejecting this?
"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12..."
▪ You quoted this passage to support your point that "rejection of patriarchal authority will lead to a curse on His people". But this is in conflict with other clear biblial teaching -- namely, regarding the judge Deborah. Judges 2 describes the cycle of rebellion Israel was in. They would rebel, then they would suffer, then The Lord would have pity on them and raise up a judge to deliver them. Then would the judge died, they'd turn back to even greater corruption, and the whole cycle started all over again. Regarding this, the scriptures SPECIFICALLY INDICATE that the rule of the judge was BLESSING -- not a curse: "When the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge and delivered them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge..." So as it relates to Deborah, she was raised up and empowered by God, and presided over Israel during a period where they were obedient to God and triumphant over their enemies. So my question is: How do you explain the fact that Israel was blessed during Deborah's reign as judge? Also, since God raised up Deborah, isn't that an example of your so-called "patriarchal authority"? Yet another question, should the men of Israel have been "real men" and disobeyed Deborah?
"According to Malachi 4:5-6, the last days ministry of the church is the spirit of Elijah calling for the people to return to patriarchy"
▪ As I said before, I don't see how you can quote Malachi 4 as your support for this idea. Malachi 4:6 is talking about Israel's REPENTANCE. The angel appearing to Elizabeth quoted that very verse (Luke 1:16-17) in relation to JOHN THE BAPTIST: "And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord..." So then my question is this: If neither Jesus nor the apostles preached anything about a "return to patriarchy", then where are you getting the idea that is supposed to be the ministry of The Church? Even in the passage you quoted in Malachi, where does it say that is supposed to be the ministry of The Church?
Hello Unknown,
ReplyDeleteYour tone is very defensive, almost as if I am expected to know you & your beliefs? You are seeming to take this article personally, and I can only assume that it is the result of personal conviction. In any regard, I'll attempt to answer your questions.
First, nothing with God is done by compulsion. Man is free to reject anything he chooses, even those things which God says is for our good.
The heart of a child set on rebellion will often ask, "Why do I have to..." because they resist being told what to do (they despise authority). But when we seek to serve the Lord in Spirit & in Truth, we do not feel put upon by His commands. Rather, it becomes a joy to do as He asks because we love Him and love His people.
While fellowship can take place in a number of ways, there is a purpose and benefit to the local assembly of the saints.
"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart." Acts 2:46
You ask what is wrong with rejecting this, yet the early church met together regularly - daily even - with joy! What a difference in perspective. Instead, maybe the question you should be asking is why you have such a desire to reject it?
I cannot speak to your presumptions about rituals, tasks, worship... All I can say is that the Scriptures are filled with references to the assembly of the saints and how we are to conduct ourselves in the house of God. Such gatherings have been a vital part of the church from its birth at Pentecost and God uses them to provide various benefits to His children...benefits nonetheless that you are free to reject.
You say that you have read the above responses, but then you go on to ask the same questions already addressed? I can only refer you again to the same resources listed above.
For Deborah, I suggest: What About Deborah? If you actually read what Judges says then you will see that the "clear teaching" of Scripture does not support what you claim.
Deborah was never called by God to be a deliverer for Israel (although every other male judge was). She did not lead the men in battle, although every other male judge did. She was not even called to go into battle and chastised Barak for giving his glory to a woman when he asked her to come. Instead of being praised as a deliverer (like every other judge), Deborah was praised for being a "mother" to Israel (Judges 5:7).
Your assertion that the judges "ruled" over Israel is false. NO judge was a ruler over the people, including Deborah (Judges 8:22-23). Israel did not get a ruler until they sought God for a King (I Samuel 8:7).
Because the judges were not rulers, there was nothing for the men to disobey. Deborah was never their ruler nor was she a commander of the troops (although every other male judge was a commander).
Again, it sounds like you are merely repeating something you have heard instead of studying the Scriptures for yourself here. If you actually read the text and examine Deborah's role compared to the role of the male judges, you will see that she was never put in a place of authority "over" any man.
Cont.
ReplyDeleteRegarding matriarchal authority being a curse, I suggest you read Isaiah Chapter 3.
God punishes Israel for idolatry by taking away the patriarchs from the land (verses 1-3). As a result, society gets turned upside down; the people are oppressed, children unruly, the base things of life are exalted over that which is honorable (verses 4-7). The people sin openly and are not be ashamed, but boldly demonstrate their unrighteous ways (verses 8-11). Regarding this disorder, God says:
"As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, your leaders cause you to err, and they confuse (destroy and swallow up) the course of your paths." Isaiah 3:12
The consequence of God removing the righteous patriarchs from society results in children running wild and women left to rule. That is the curse.
Who said that there is a "ministry" of calling people back to patriarchal authority? Such is not a ministry. Such is the heart of every born again believer!
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:4-5
Do you know what the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" is? The call of the last days church is a call to return to patriarchy. It is not just 'a' purpose of the church but THE purpose of the church. The spirit of Elijah always prepares the way of the Lord with a call to repentance, which is the equivalent of people turning their hearts back to the father (Malachi 4).
If you do not understand this then you do not understand what repentance is and it is no wonder that you are unable to see how Jesus and the Apostles preached this message. Jesus repeatedly told the religious leaders of His day that the reason they could not receive Him is because they did not know the Father. They could not recognize His authority because they were blind to the authority of the Father - which is patriarchal authority (Matthew 21:23-27; Mark 11:28-33; Luke 20:2-8). They were so blind that they could even call the authority of the Father the workings of a devil.
You say that you have listened to the discussion with Djuan. It may benefit you to listen again as there is much you seem to have missed.
Latter Days, I don't know what I'm going to do with you. Everytime I ask you a question, you try to preach a sermon to me or make some kind of personal attack or inquisition into my motives, tone, or whatever else you want to dream up. I'm just asking you simple questions to get understanding because some of the stuff you say doesn't make any SENSE. That's it. Now if I may, I'd like to try again:
ReplyDelete● I asked you what is wrong with rejecting "assembling -- under compulsion -- at a designated place and time, and performing rituals and tasks at the direction of others that are neither authentic worship or have no basis in scripture". You didn't answer my question. You went on and on about "the purpose and benefit to the local assembly of the saints". That is NOT at issue. I will repeat -- I have NO ISSUE with the local assembly of Christians inside or outside of a building, every Sunday or every other Friday. Doesn't matter to me. So I would appreciate an answer to the specific question I asked you. Thank you.
● I asked you to reconcile your assertion about female leadership (that it is a sign of a curse per Isaiah 3:12) with the FACT that Deborah was a judge, empowered and authorized to lead Israel by God, and led during a period of blessing and victory over its enemies. I augmented by question with DIRECT scriptural reference from the book of Judges, which explains that when Israel cried out to God after descending into rebellion, God raised up the judge to deliver Israel. Further, that while the judge lived, Israel was obedient to God and prospered. Again, the DIRECT scriptural evidence seemingly CONTRADICTS your claim that female leadership in any and all cases is the sign of a curse. I ask you again to please answer my direct question, and not distract from it by attacking Deborah's character and God-given role and authority. That is NOT the issue. Thank you.
● I asked you where in Malachi does it say that is supposed to be the ministry of The Church to "call for the people to return to patriarchy", and you completely bypassed that. I don't understand how you just do that. LOL. I respectfully ask yet again, that you answer this question. If you cannot, then that's fine. Just say that, and trust me I'll be ok with that. This isn't a contest.
In closing, I listened to the program you did with Djuan. Just about everything you said on there makes perfect sense. But some of the stuff you're saying on this post -- I'm sorry, but it just does not make any sense and it does not line up with the consistent teaching of scripture.
I say again, I agree with your overarching points that all legitimate authority descends from God, and that God ordains leadership and structure in the Body of Christ to help advance the gospel, to disciple and serve people, and overall glorify Christ. If that's what you're saying, then we're fine. But some of this other stuff, I just feel you ought to rethink.
Hello Unknown,
ReplyDeleteYou say, "Everytime I ask you a question"? Have I ever discussed this (or any matter) with you before? Perhaps your motives would be more clear if you were more transparent as to your identity. Your tone was defensive; that was simply an observation and not a personal attack. If you do not see how, then don't worry about it.
I answered your question about assemblies and I specifically said that I could not speak to your presumptions about rituals, tasks, worship... If you feel that some fellowships are not authentic, then find one which is. The fact that there may be unBiblical gatherings is no excuse to reject the benefits of Godly fellowship. Unless I have stated that people must attend an unBiblical assembly, then your question is nonsensical.
Where in Judges does it say that the judges were "leaders" over Israel? The judges were in fact commanders over the troops (all except Deborah that is) and they helped to wisely resolve disputes according to the law, but they were not leaders or rulers over the people as you continue to insist.
"In those days there was no king in Israel..." Judges 17:6a
If you believe they were, then show where such is stated in Scripture.
Please also tell me where I said it was "a ministry of the church to call for the people to return to patriarchy". How can you call upon me to validate that which I never stated? Those are your words, not mine.
What "I" said is that a return to patriarchal authority (the turning of the hearts back to the father) is the same as a call to repentance. Such is the heart of all believers, calling the lost to repentance. Such is the Gospel message, "Repent and believe." If you don't understand that, I can only suggest you pray and ask God for insight.
It really doesn't matter to me whether people agree with what I am saying or not. All that matters is whether such is Biblical. As in all things, I don't suggest people take my word for anything, but search the Scriptures for yourself. Much of what you have stated here is not sound based on what Scriptures says (not what I say). This is why I am suggesting it be taken to prayer vs. continuing to rehash the same things here.
Thanks again for your comments and I pray that God provides the answers you seek.
OK, so I am going to add one more thing that people can take to prayer to God on this issue in the hopes that it will help others better understand.
ReplyDeleteMalachi 4 says that the spirit of Elijah will be sent before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. It goes on to say that this will result in a restoration of patriarchy in the hearts of the people (hearts of children & fathers being turned towards each other).
This was fulfilled in part when John the Baptist came. He came in the spirit of Elijah.
"And he [John the Baptist] shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Luke 1:17
Again above, it says that John the Baptist will restore the heart of patriarchy in a reference to Malachi 4.
Yet, what is it that John the Baptist did specifically which brought about this result? He preached repentance.
Repentance means to turn. When we repent, we are turning our hearts back to the Father; placing ourselves under His authority as Lord over our lives.
Examine the prodigal son. He initially rebelled against his fathers authority, rejecting it and preferring to live as he pleased. When he repented he "turned back" to the father and subjected himself to his father's authority. That is repentance; a turning of the heart back to the father; a restoration of honoring patriarchy (God's authority) in the heart.
The image of the earthly father is to be a reflection of God the Father. God set it up that way so that we could have a pattern by which to know Him. Knowing and honoring the role of a father makes it easier for us to know and honor God as our Father (as discussed with Djuan).
Judges 2 kept being referenced above. In reading that, examine what God had to say about Israel in terms of their respect (or lack there of) for the fathers. God cites their obedience (or disobedience) to Him based on their respect for (or lack there of) their own patriarchs (fathers).
Notice what IS said about Deborah (versus what people like to claim about her):
"My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the LORD." Judges 5:9
Her "heart" was toward those men who had gone into battle to deliver the people. Her "heart" was patriarchal; she honored God's authority because she honored the reflection of that authority in the men in Israel.
Examine how many times it states in Judges there was "no king" over the people at that time (Judges 17:6; 18:1; 19:1; 21:25). There was no ruler or lord over God's people at that time because He desired to lead them directly. This is why it was so sinful that they later asked for someone to rule over them.
"And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." I Samuel 8:7
Repentance is the same thing as having a love for patriarchy (God's authority) restored in the heart. When Jesus & the disciples preach, "Repent!", they were commanding the people to turn their hearts back to the patriarchs - and in doing so to turn their hearts back to the supreme Patriarch, God the Father. Everything in regards to faith that Jesus saw in the people or that they lacked He attributed to the presence (or lack thereof) of their love for/knowledge of the Father.
There is a reason why the false church, the system which is anti-Christ, is headed by a woman. It is not because women are evil or not spiritual. It is because female headship is the exact opposite of God's authority. Matriarchy is the opposite of Patriarchy, and God's authority is patriarchal because He is a Father.
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
ReplyDeleteYe do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word." John 8:39-43
Do we see how God continues to equate honoring patriarchal authority in the earth as a barometer for whether we truly know God as we say we do? It is impossible for us to say we honor God, but then reject His authority and His order.
Any authority that is not from God (is not patriarchal) is illegitimate. This is why a woman rides the beast because the false church is matriarchal (whether seen visibly as female headship or a castrated, effeminate, soulish man).
A patriarchal heart is endued by God with the desire & strength to fight, to protect, to lay down one's life, to serve, to stand for truth, to obey the Father, to see captives set free and reconciled to the Lord of Glory.
A matriarchal heart desires to be pampered, be told smooth things, live in "king's palaces", wear "soft clothes", be exalted, be served, use God for their own advantage, and bring people into bondage to themselves as lord's over His inheritance.
This is not about gender. Remember, Deborah too had a heart that was patriarchal. It simply means that we honor God because we honor the authority that He sets up as a reflection of Himself.
Latter Days, as I make my final response, I would like to offer you some constructive criticism by saying that you really should work on providing direct, concise, complete, and non-defensive answers to people who are asking you honest questions. Everything is not a debate. Not everybody is trying to "catch" you in something. Some people are actually genuinely interested in what you have to say. And I just feel that you are not good at respecting that. Moving on...
ReplyDelete● I'm glad to finally have you ON RECORD, saying that people should not compromise biblical and personal principles by attending "organized fellowship" just for the sake of attending "organized fellowship". This is important because often times people who do not partake in mandatory assemblies at a building at 11am every Sunday are disparaged as -- to use your words -- "completely rejecting organized fellowship as they go rogue". I thought you should be challenged on that statement, because my research and experience shows that it is not "organized fellowship" that people reject. Rather, it is FALSE worship and FALSE authority. So then, I think it is important that you be on record that people should diligently and prayerfully seek out and maintain authentic worship and fellowship experiences and not compromise. It is THIS that should be valued -- not simply attending "organized fellowship". So once again, thank you for clarifying the record on that.
● Regarding your continued dispute over whether a judge was a leader over Israel, that's just some foolishness. I'll just leave that one alone, because the scriptures are quite clear on that issue. No sense even debating that further.
● On the question of where in Malachi does it state or imply that it is the ministry of The Church to "call for the people to return to patriarchy", I don't understand why you won't simply acknowledge the fact that it's not there. There is no evidence in that passage or anywhere else that is "the last days ministry of the church" to "call for the people to return to patriarchy". You completely made that up.
But forget all the stuff I just said... Here's what I really want to address with you, and then I'm done.
You JUST said with respect to your "patriarchal authority" concept the following: "This is not about gender." Yet, in your article one of the FIRST things you do is INTRODUCE gender! This is what has been mind-boggling to me all this time.
One one hand, you say that female leadership is illegitimate and the sign of a curse (again, YOU said that). Then when I show you IN THE BIBLE a woman who was empowered and authorized in her leadership and authority over Israel by The Most High Himself, you seemingly ignore the bible and then engage in obfuscation. I cite once more Judges 2:
"Then the LORD raised up judges who delivered them from the hands of those who plundered them. Yet they did not listen to their judges...When the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge and delivered them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge...But it came about when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers..."
In the absence of an appointed king, they all administered martial/military and judicial law (according to The Law of Moses). They were "raised up" by God, and they were to be "listened to" and obeyed. So, I don't understand how you can reasonably say they did not exercise leadership or some sort of rule. WHO ELSE WAS THERE FOR ISRAEL TO OBEY? I don't get it...
Anyway, I don't here. Thank you so much for your time. Your passion and dedication to God's Word is very evident in the work you put into this blog site. You are to be commended for that.
Good day, and blessings to you.
Hello Kevin,
ReplyDeleteI am really not sure why you are "glad". I have never stated that people need to attend "organized fellowship" simply for the sake of doing so. If any has come away from this article feeling convicted about their stance on this issue, then they simply need to repent.
Yet let's not get this twisted because it is not about what I say or endorse (or any other), but what God says. This article in no way supports the "going rogue" attitude many professing Christians have in this area - nor does Scripture.
I cannot validate what your experience shows, nor does such matter any more than my own personal endorsement. I can only test the spirit and go by the word of God in this matter. And for many, it is the spirit of rebellion being manifested.
You are certainly right that the fallacies presented about Deborah are not worth debating. Scripture is clear. If God's word supported most of what people claim about her, it would be a simple enough matter to show by the text. They cannot because it does not.
As I have said to you before Kevin, you will never be able to understand what the Scriptures say about the authority of God until you stop kicking against the pricks. You need to repent brother. As long as you continue to endorse matriarchal authority and promote the headship of women over men (thereby promoting rebellion against God) then you will remain blind in this area.
However, this is what is so ironic, and yet TRAGIC about your comments and that of some others here:
You claim to be rejecting fellowship out of an effort to steer clear of "false" authority, yet you have yet to understand what "Godly" authority is.
How can you discern the false when you cannot even identify that which is true? It is surely an example of the blind leading the blind.
Until you exalt God's ways above your own understanding and seek Him for HIS revelation in this area, then you will never be able to "see" God's authority when it is in operation. Your own efforts to call "good" what He calls "evil" will blind you to it.
I pray that this article, the responses in the comments, and even the discussion with Djuan will edify those with eyes to see and ears to hear. This is not the day for remaining stiffnecked and being led by our own understandings. The times of man's ignorance God once winked at, but now He is calling all men to repent. For those who are willing to partake of the living waters freely given, Repent and believe the Gospel because the Kingdom of God is at hand.