But Whom Say YE That I Am?
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 6:13-18
It is critically important who we believe Jesus to be and how we represent Him to the world. The world may not have a clue who Jesus really is, but part of the salvation experience is an inner revelation by God the Father about the identity of Jesus Christ. In fact, Jesus says that it is on "this rock" - the revealed truth of Jesus as the Anointed Messiah, the Son of the Living God - that Jesus will build His church.
Yet, as many of you are aware, there is an effort underway to deny who Jesus really is and to even redefine who God is. This ecumenical message is being drummed into society in many ways via churches, schools, and the media. One example is a song by Michael Gungor entitled "God is not a white man".
This better understanding of Jesus caused them to start their own church called "Bloom" which led them to the following conclusions about Jesus:
We aren't sure that God is all that into labels, so we aren't either. At Bloom we have tied ourselves to the story of God found in Jesus, which makes us decidedly Christian, but we gladly welcome anybody among us regardless of creed, race, sexual orientation, or any other division that we humans like to divide ourselves into. Our hope is that everyone who wanders into our community will come to love and embrace Jesus and his story too."Do you see how they have completely redefined not only Christianity, but Jesus Christ Himself? Being Christian is not about repentance from sin and turning in faith to receive Jesus as Savior through a born again experience. Being Christian simply means that one has "embraced" or appreciated the "story" of Jesus. Jesus is not God Himself, but someone in whom the "story of God" may be found. While The True & Living God tells us to have no fellowship with darkness, Gungor says they will have fellowship with all no matter what one believes or the lifestyle they live. Do we show love by preaching acceptance of all beliefs and lifestyles or do we show love by obeying God's words? (John 14:15)
And, of course, this new revelation of God also impacts how they view worship music:
"“If leading worship is just about bringing a group of people into a room so we can get goosebumps and sing songs together, there’s not much value in that. But if leading worship is a means to an end, that we leave this place as a different kind of people, as part of a new humanity that God wants to create – the people that are caring for the widows and orphans, that aren’t bound by the systems of this world but becoming free, becoming fully engaged in our world – then that matters.”"They see themselves as having moved from 'people pleasers' to those urging others to become more "fully engaged" in the world. Notice, the vehicle or the "means to the end" of getting people more into the world is their music.
It would appear that Gungor has never had a Biblical understanding about what worship is. Worship is not about what pleases people or what is acceptable to the world; it is that which is inspired by God's Spirit and His Truth. If "worship" is not grounded first in the Spirit and truths of God...it is not worship. And that leads us to the band's song "God is not a white man."
This song can best be described by the video itself, as that illustration gives a clear depiction of the "god" being promoted in this song. In tearing down what they depict as false images of God, the song's conclusion is very simple, "God is love and He loves everyone."
In one scene, there is a child with a sad face because she is sitting before a plate full of vegetables. But then "love" comes in and changes these nutritious foods into candy...and that is what Gungor has done in this song.
In this song, he has stripped away from his presentation of "God" any of the saving strength and power of the Gospel, and replaced it with a message that is sugary sweet & pleasing to the flesh, but has no spiritual value. It would seem Gungor has not moved as far from being a 'people pleaser' as he may think.
What parent would cater to a childish whim to let kids eat candy instead of vegetables just because candy tastes better? How would such a decision affect the development of the child? Would not depriving him/her of essential nutrients and replacing that with empty calories actually be feeding sickness and death to them? Yet this is exactly what Gungor's "god of love" does and that is also what he is doing spiritually to those listening to such "worship" music.
Why am I even bothering to write about this? Because the church is being sung lullabies of false gospels and feel-good doctrines which are simply rocking many to sleep. We need to stop swallowing what every "artist" puts out and giving ear to every "song" when such is devoid of true spiritual food.
There is a saying in the computer industry of "Junk in, Junk out." It means that if you put bad data into a processor, you will only get out bad data. What are you feeding on? Do you not know that you are what you eat? And it is not just Gungor; he is but one example. There is a whole horde of "Christian" music which is about anything BUT Christ, yet many in the churchworld continue to embrace it. They play them on the radios, buy their CDs, and even sing them in the church fellowships; becoming increasingly indoctrinated into a one world Babylonian religious system that denies Jesus Christ.
As people sing along with this song (and others like it), I hope they truly understand who they are worshiping.
They are worshiping a "God" who is mocked as someone just like man, an imperfect sinner. Jesus then is no longer your Savior, but He has now become your "homeboy" as shown in the T-shirt graphic.
They are worshiping a "God" who is one with cross-dressers and transvestites.
They are worshiping a "God" who cannot "be owned by religion". In other words, God is SO big, that there is not just one way you can access Him.
They are worshiping a "God" who is a "friend" to "atheists, charlatans, communists, lesbians, and terrorists" to name a few. Yet we know from Scripture that God is not a friend to sinners.
These are just some of the messages promoted in this song.
Is that what God means when He says that He is love? The problem is not whom God loves, but the fact that man loves darkness more than he loves light (John 3:19). And according to this song, even embracing deeds of evil and darkness is "good". This is the "god" they are promoting.
So I ask you, "Who do YOU say that God is?"
The video is stench in God's nostrils. It is so far from the Gospel. Sadly, many are believing the lie. Thanks for this excellent blog post and for speaking the truth.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the video is somewhat contradictory to Christianity to a degree. But I don't think they intentionally meant to be so silly in the delivery in an otherwise good song. God does love everyone "Jew and gentile" as long as we accept Jesus Christ, the Messiah, as our Lord and Savior.
ReplyDeleteThe skull and bones, not to mention drinking of the blood is just creepy and a whole different discussion.
Hello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe post is very contradictory to Christianity. Some might call it silly, but our question should be, "What does God think of it?"
If we are His and we have the mind of Christ, should we not seek to love what He loves and hate what He hates? Should the desires of our hearts not align with His?
This song mocks God. It in no way sets for the truth about who God truly is, and the video itself reveals the confused, anti-Christ spirit behind such "worship".
I doubt they are drinking blood in the image on their site, but it still invokes that image. That combined with the symbols of death speak volumes about the spirit behind this work.
Amen Sarah!! And thank God for that difference!
ReplyDeleteHis love is not fickle, not based on performance, not a respecter of persons, not waning, and not self-serving. As you point out, neither is it devoid of chastening.
Too many people view chastening as something which is the opposite of love because men love to be indulged and to have the flesh placated. Yet God desires for our good and for His best to be manifest in us. This requires that we be changed to be like Him...and it is a blessing that He loves us enough to even do that. Instead of leaving us in sin and separated from Him, He redeems and modifies us so we can be as He is.
I can think of no greater love!
I checked out the website and I don't think it's at odds with Jesus at all.
ReplyDeleteSo they have an image of a man drinking blood. Wasn't it Jesus who turned people off by using shocking language about drinking his blood and eating his flesh?
And sinners are welcome in their church. Didn't Jesus have feasts with sinners? Don't the sick need a physician?
I don't agree with everything on the site, but he seems to have a genuine thirst for the true and living God, not a recycled packaging of who others think God is..
Hi Lauren,
ReplyDeleteI have already detailed above what the problems are with what is presented on the Gungor site, so I won't revisit that. I'll simply say that what matters is not what man thinks but what God says.
When Jesus told the people to drink His flesh and eat His blood, He did not say that for "shock value". Neither was He encouraging the people to commit sin (Lev. 17:14; Acts 15:20, 29). He was speaking of a spiritual truth. And while Jesus certainly came to save sinners, He never lied to them by proclaiming that they were okay in their sin. His message was one of repentance.
Again, the standard is God's word. Anything that perverts that is a lie and not of the Lord.
Thanks for your comments.
"“If leading worship is just about bringing a group of people into a room so we can get goosebumps and sing songs together, there’s not much value in that. But if leading worship is a means to an end, that we leave this place as a different kind of people, as part of a new humanity that God wants to create – the people that are caring for the widows and orphans, that aren’t bound by the systems of this world but becoming free, becoming fully engaged in our world – then that matters.”"
ReplyDeleteThey see themselves as having moved from 'people pleasers' to those urging others to become more "fully engaged" in the world. Notice, the vehicle or the "means to the end" of getting people more into the world is their music."
They are not saying the vehicle is their music. They are saying that worship should not be a feel good time, but should bring out in us the godly nature of doing good religion (James 1:27), of taking care of the fatherless and the widowed, of engaging in a world that needs a savior.
How is taking care of the fatherless and widowed and engaging a lost world a bad thing?
Hello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteGood works in and of themselves mean nothing to God. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. In fact, "good works" done apart from a complete submission and obedience to the will of God is called "works of iniquity" by Him (Matthew 7:22-23).
Gungor specifically says that leading worship - which they do through the music they produce - is a "means to an end". So their very words contradict your assertion that they are not saying their music is the vehicle for this change.
Also, their estimation of having a "godly nature" is being "fully engaged" in the world. They suggest that we be so engaged that we even disobey God's word in achieving this fellowship with the world.
This is the exact opposite of the instruction of Christ who says that we should be in the world but not of the world (John 15:18-19, 17:14-16).
The friend of the world is the enemy of God (James 4:4). And this is true no matter how many "good works" one performs.
If Gungor is wrong and is causing other people to sin then wouldn't the proper Biblical approach to this transgression be to reach out to Gungor, show them their sin, and walk with them to a place of repentance? What about simply engaging them in a conversation to try to determine where they are coming from? Understand their heart?
ReplyDeleteBlogging about it, casting stones, pointing fingers without any spiritual care or insight for their souls (if they are indeed in the wrong) is simply hypocritical Pharisaism, which is not something Jesus spoke highly of.
Hello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteGod is not concerned with "understanding" man's heart; He already does. That is why He says that it is desperately wicked and deceitful above all.
As it relates to Jesus, the Pharisees provide a great example. They focused on an outward appearance of godliness, but were filled with hypocrisy because they denied the truths of God's word in order to present their own truths. Their lips professed faith in God, but their hearts were far from Him…as evidenced by their teachings. This is exactly what happens when people water down God's commands in order to be well-received and favored by the people.
Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees were not cordial attempts to determine where they were coming from. Some of His strongest rebukes were given to them because they knowingly held back the truth of God’s word before the people.
Am I saying that Gungor are a bunch of Pharisees who should not be shown Jesus’ compassion and redemption? Of course not. I am saying that your attempt to imply that righteous judgment depends upon first reaching out to understand someone’s “heart” is false.
Your main concern seems to be Gungor’s “heart” and understanding where they are coming from. My main concern is for the truth of God’s words and the saving power of the Gospel…a Gospel that can save a member of Gungor just as well as it can save any other. However, when lies are being promoted in the name of Jesus Christ, I am going to call them lies…regardless of who proclaims it.
The saddest thing is that you cannot even seem to bring yourself to acknowledge whether what they are teaching through their music is biblical or not. Reminds me of Elijah, when Scripture says:
"And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." I Kings 18:21
How long indeed will people straddle the fence and be lukewarm? Unable to stand for God and call a spade a spade. Is their teaching biblical or is it not? Your being unable to commit either way says a mouthful.
Thanks for your thoughts.
The guy is drinking the nectar from the hummingbird feeder, not blood...
ReplyDeleteHello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI never said the man was drinking blood. I said the picture evokes images of blood drinking. That combined with the skull and crossbones continuously used throughout their site reflects death.
Skulls, bones, and drinking blood-like nectar has nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever...and for that matter, neither do their lyrics to this song.
Latter Days.
ReplyDeleteI am so thankful you have brought this out. I have had the opportunity to work with Michael last year and I really tried to understand his way of seeing Jesus Christ and the message. I wasn't able to without giving into some sort of half truths. Hard to pinpoint this type of approach that Michael uses. I felt I could never be the one with the "right" answer when in any conversation about the message of the Gospel. The new deception in my opinion of this type of "smartness" that Michael throws out there continually is of an argumentative one and you are never right if it is outside of his little world. Seems that satan has been doing that exact thing since the beginning. Using half truths to cause you to stumble then stick an wedge in between you and what Christ really was saying. Deception in Gungor. Beware. Deception in the "new" Christian message that Rob Bell and Michael share. Michael is a universalist at heart and not to mention IMO a flat out racist. Sad. I have worked in the worship music field for some time and never thought the devil could get a real solid foothold in it, but I was wrong.
If you need to come to a place in worship with music, pick a different artist. Try Paul Baloche or Brenton Brown or Kathyrn Scott or anyone except Gungor. Not for my house. As for me and my house Michael Gungor, we will serve the Lord, not Michael Gungor's version of what he would like Christ to be.
D James
Hi D James,
ReplyDeleteI have no idea about Gungor's personal beliefs. What I can say for sure is that the "gospel" he is preaching in his music is a false one.
I also agree that Satan has established a foothold in much of what is called "Christian" music.
We must continue to do as you have done: stand for the truth of God's word regardless of who doesn't like it.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I do think that some of what they said is untrue. They've watered down God's might and justice.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think that this is being viewed unfairly. They are NOT looking at God as a transvestite. They were pointing out the fact that many view God as man in their minds, and he isn't a man. It was a silly way to show that, but in no way were they claiming something like that.
Secondly, God IS a friend to all. They never said that God loves when terrorists kill people. God DOES in fact love terrorists and catholics and communists alike. He certainly does NOT love their sin and their actions, but he loves them because he created them.
They probably should have included clarifications and not just the sugary sweet. That is true. But I think it is quite too far to say the enemy is the controlling factor of the band.
God IS in fact love! He isn't the sappy watered-down lover he is made out to be in the video, but He is love. This song shouldn't be commended for its accuracy, but it surely should not be condemned as a work of the devil.
Hello blog owner, I just posted a comment using an anonymous name.
ReplyDeletePlease reject it. I don't know why I am even choosing to argue on the internet with others. That is not what God's purpose for me is.
Please don't approve it. I'd rather leave it off the website.
Thank you!:)
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIf the gospel has been watered down and modified with half-truths, then it becomes "another" gospel and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Scripture says that such is inspired by Satan.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Cor. 11:3-4
I cannot BEGIN to explain why certain symbolism was chosen for this video, yet HOW does a transvestite represent the image of God as a "man"?
The video also depicts an image of "god" in a fig leaf which seems to sufficiently represent that idea. So, I cannot assume that this is what they hope to communicate with the transvestite image. And more importantly, WHY are we even discussing what they mean by representing God in this manner? The entire idea is blasphemous.
In terms of whom God loves or befriends, consider as well the following:
"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me." Proverbs 8:17
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5:5
"The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." Psalm 11:5
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." Proverbs 6:16-19
"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14
"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;" Hebrews 7:26
The following articles also go a little bit more into those topics.
Our God IS a God of Love
Jesus is NOT a Friend to Sinners
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Hello again Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI responded to your initial comment prior to seeing your follow-up. Since you posted anonymously - and because others may have similar questions - I see no harm in leaving it. Of course, feel free not to respond as I do respect your choice not to dialogue over the Internet.
Thanks.
Does anyone know if Michael W Smith is OK to listen to?
ReplyDeleteHello Latter Days Ministry,
ReplyDeleteI found your post very interesting, and agreed with some of your commentary but disagreed with several of your points.
I absolutely agree that it is fundamental that we work to understand what the Bible says about who God is. While this is, of course, easier said than done, it is still important to spend time studying the Word and eventually sharing with the rest of the world.
I also agree that there are many damaging misinterpretations present about who Jesus is and who God is.
I do not agree, however, that Michael Gungor's "God is not a white man" is as much of a misinterpretation as you claim it is.
One critique you had about Gungor was the symbols of death in their logos. I agree that Christian worship is in general designed to be uplifting. I do not, however, think that this means the reality of the bad in the world should be completely ignored.
Gungor has a wonderful song called Beautiful Things that I believe answers why Gungor would incorporate skulls and crossbones into their logos. I will leave you to look up the full lyrics, but a key one: "You make beautiful things out of the dust."
If you look at their album cover, you'll see that the skull and crossbones actually make up flowers. I believe that this is a fantastic representation of God's amazing ability to turn our sin-filled world into something that can at times be beautiful.
It is unclear to me what you could find offensive about birds.
I agree that Christians should not blindly accept lifestyles that God would not accept, but it seems to me that you are twisting the words of Gungor's quote about Bloom. Yes, being Christian is about repentance and being born again. Yes, being Christian is about embracing Jesus and the true story about Him in the Bible. Yes, being Christian is about reaching out to others, regardless of denomination or skin color or sexual orientation. I see nothing in Gungor's quote about this "darkness" that you are referring to.
As musicians, Gungor has decided to choose music as their medium to reach out to the world and share the Gospel. Others may choose books or pulpits or volunteer work or blogs. Music is a completely valid way of expressing and sharing Christianity.
(cont...)
(cont...)
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Gungor's music video has some flaws. The vegetable-to-candy transformation is not a very good depiction of God's restoring work in the world. You did not mention this, but I am also disappointed by the lyrics that group "lesbians" with "atheists, charlatans, and communists," as if it is somehow wrong to be a lesbian. In addition, the parallel of "Protestant" to "president" and "Catholic" to "terrorist" is another unfortunate misstep in the lyrics.
Despite these small criticisms, I approve of Gungor's overall message. Gungor is not saying that all there is to God is love. He is, of course, much more complex than that. This song is simply touching on one often forgotten and very important characteristic of God: His great love.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Why shouldn't Gungor emphasize the importance of love in the Gospel?
I find it difficult to address your next several paragraphs, as you do not give any evidence to your claims. I personally have found a great deal of worship music with spiritually rich lyrics.
Your "homeboy" comment seems misplaced; the graphic tee in the music video was shown as a representation of God that is untrue. The same goes for your cross-dressing and transvestite comment, though I do not believe that there is anything inherently wrong with cross-dressing.
You seem to be misinterpreting the lyric that "God cannot be owned by religion." I'm sure you would agree that no human can "own" God. Saying that religion does not "own" God does not in any way mean that God can be accessed through any religion one chooses.
I agree that God does not condone sin, but I do not think this means that God abandons sinners. We are all sinners, but God still loves us. Our sin may grieve Him, and we should not take sin lightly, but sin does not make Him love us any less.
I skimmed the post that you linked to, and will agree that by your definition Jesus is not a "friend" to sinners. I would like to point out, however, that Gungor never uses the word "friend" in the song.
Your closing statements are also unclear to me. Nowhere in Gungor's song have I seen anything about embracing darkness, or loving evil more than loving God. That simply is not in the lyrics.
I appreciate that you took the time to share your thoughts on the song, and to encourage discussion. I hope my comments have helped to you to reexamine some of your conclusions.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYou say that you don't agree Gungor's song is "as much of a misinterpretation" as I claim. Well, how much perversion of the Gospel is acceptable? Does not a little leaven leaven the while lump (I Cor. 5:6-7; Gal. 5:7-9)?
Christian worship shouldn't be "designed" to be anything. Like everything else coming from God, it simply needs to be God-inspired or God-breathed. The problems creep in when man tries to manufacture substitutes for the life that only God's Spirit can bring.
What is utterly tragic is that you feel led to justify why they incorporate occult death symbols into their ministry. Such is fruitless precisely because there is no justification. Yet, you hit on exactly why Gungor's "gospel" is so dangerous.
God never tries to "beautify" the things of the world. All that is in the world is not of Him (I John 2:16). However, most people don't truly believe that. That's why we must be born again. God doesn't try to "beautify" the old man, but makes us completely new in Him, taking none of the image of the world to mold His new creation (Rom. 8:7).
What you have stated is backwards. God is not trying to beautify a sin-filled world. Rather, sin has marred the beautiful, perfect, and good world that He originally created. As a result, God is judging this world and redeeming His people out of it, for He will eventually fold it up like a vesture and dispose of it (Heb. 1:10-12). God is not trying to save the "world" (John 17:9).
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4
Their evoking images of blood drinking is not offensive to me at all; it is simply one more evidence of the incorporation of the occult into their "ministry".
When music is truly inspired by God's Spirit, it can truly touch even the coldest heart. When it is not inspired by God, it is simply perversion.
You say, "as if it is somehow wrong to be a lesbian" and "I do not believe that there is anything inherently wrong with cross-dressing". Therein lies your problem (Romans 1:24-32; Deu. 22:5).
You are walking in a sodomite spirit. That is why you cannot see the perversion in Gungor's music because that same perversion lives inside of you.
I am not casting dispersions or putting you down. EVERY person who is not born again has a sodomite in spirit. It is the natural, fallen condition of man.
When Gungor changed vegetables into candy, they were telling you that the god they serve will give you sweet things (even to your detriment) rather than the nutrition you need to live. I will not do that. I will tell you the truth, even if it is hard to swallow: you need to repent and be born again. Only then will you have eyes to see the deceptions promoted by this song and in your own words here.
There is a series on this blog about just this issue which I raise in case you are interested Turning the World Upside Down
If we are to be truly reconciled with God (and not simply professing Christians in name only), then we must submit to the Father and acknowledge His truths. While the world is filled with "Christians" who will be rejected as God having never known them (Matt. 7:23), you don't have to be one of them.
"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15
I thought I saw/approved a comment asking about Michael W. Smith, but it doesn't seem to be appearing. In any regard, I don't know anything about him or his music. I would say to simply seek God for what He wants you to listen to...and do that. Don't let your own personal tastes be the guide, but be led by His Spirit.
ReplyDeleteI'll also mention that oftentimes I have personally found that artists have a mixture of soulish versus spiritual songs, even on one album. There may be some songs which really glorify the Lord and others which just seem plain worldly. So, we must be sensitive to the Spirit of God in these areas (as in all things).
There is a big move afoot in CCM to push towards ecumenicism. In doing so, there is a outright perversion of the Gospel message (as we see here), so just be prayerful. God is faithful to give us wisdom.
The Bible does not say that God is not a friend to sinners. We are all sinners, therefore, if God were not a friend to sinners, he would not be a friend to any of us. Jesus hung out with the tax collectors and the prostitutes. People everyone hated.
ReplyDeleteGod is a friend to sinners.
Hello Jessica,
ReplyDeleteGod never says that Jesus is a friend to sinners.
Jesus is "separate" from sinners (Hebrews 7:26).
God does not hear sinners (John 9:31).
God is angry with sinners every day (Psalm 7:11).
Only those who obey God are His friends (John 15:14).
The theory that Jesus is a friend to sinners and even that "we are all sinners" is false. He draws nigh only to those who are repentant about sin.
The only thing I can suggest is that you study the Scriptures in this matter.
The following articles might help:
Sin is Past
Jesus Is Not Friend to Sinners
I have split this post into two due to its length, I apologize.
ReplyDeleteI guess I should preface this by saying that I have only heard just a few songs from this group (including the one being discussed here) and I can only infer their intentions and beliefs from their lyrics and whatever else they present. But I would like to comment on your evaluation of this group, in that I believe some of your comments might be victim of some over-analysis and perhaps even some witch-hunting.
I don't believe that this group is untrue to the biblical truth that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and God made manifest. Looking through the lyrics of their music, I feel you will see in their full context that they believe our lives our nothing apart from trust in Christ (Lyrics from the song "You Alone" justify this statement). Yes I agree that any lyrics from modern Christian music could be cherry-picked and can have some theological ambiguity, but I would agree in spirit with the song that God does love a terrorist, lesbian, catholic, and protestant (and everyone else) who would come to Him (This is why he sent His Son, true?)
You say that God is not a friend to sinners, but I can't honestly believe you could read the gospels and believe that entirely! Wasn't Jesus accused of being a friend of sinners by associating with tax collector and drinkers? While we were still sinners, didn't Christ die for us? Doesn't that same chapter in Romans 5 say that Christ died for the ungodly (v. 6)? Perhaps you should say that "God is not a friend to sinners who refuse to come to Him through acceptance of His son Jesus Christ." That would be a more accurate statement than "God is not a friend of sinners"
Your comments regarding their view on leading worship are a bit harsh and you seem to be nit-picking in order to paint this group as a bunch of heretical new-age gnostics. If you could put yourself into the role of a worship leader, would you not also feel that your role is also only a "means to an end"? Short of the Holy Spirit coming down into a room full of people just sitting around doing nothing, all any worship leader is is a means to an end. Meaning that their efforts are to lead people in worship (the means)so that they can encounter and praise a holy God (the end). I am personally glad that they make the effort to go beyond the "getting goose-bumbs and singing songs" mode of corporate worship that does concern me. Our society thrives on consumerism and a "give me now what I want now" mentality. I agree that contemporary Christian music and the church has suffered from this to some extent. But I am grateful for those worship leaders who want worship to be more about what it can do to drive the church to be more like the church. Wouldn't Jesus want us to be more about doing His business?
Continued in second post...
Continued from previous comment...
ReplyDeleteIf these folks are trying to reach an audience who doesn't know God with the message that God is love, I will not fault them given that this leads the listener to further delve into what God has for them through Jesus (which is why God is love!). Paul said that in 1st Corinthians 9 that he had "become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some" Our society is lacking love, and our younger generation (of which I am a part) tends to think of Christianity more in terms of hatred and bigotry towards others while knowing nothing of God's love through Christ and his redemptive work. Just like Paul had to use the pagan statue in Athens to reach the Greeks for Jesus, I think this group might be using the love of God to overcome preconceived notions and reach other for Christ.
Finally, you seem to make a very large issue over their use of skulls, crossbones, and the like. I don't really know why they have someone drinking hummingbird nectar (which I honestly didn't perceive to be drinking blood and I think you grossly exaggerated), but I believe I could explain their use of the other symbolism. The title of their album is "Beautiful Things" and in the title track, the lyrics explain how God can take the terrible things of this earth and make beautiful things out of them ("beauty from ashes", so to speak). I think it is quite creative (and true) to symbolize this by having artwork consisting of flowers literally formed from all of those terrible things this world is known for and they grow from a earth that is likewise full of such things. Food for thought, but didn't God use one of the ultimate symbols of death (the cross) to lead us to new life in Him?
As mentioned in the beginning of this very long comment, I do not know the hearts of these individuals. I pray they are using the gospel to reach the masses for the glory of God. But from reading your posting on this issue, I would encourage you to be less dogmatic in your approach. Your comments aren't too far from those of the Jewish religious leaders who condemned our Savior for healing someone on the Sabbath! They missed the glory of a miracle for the rule of the law. Do not miss the opportunity to positively encourage the efforts of brothers and sisters in Christ to reach others by slamming them on a few lyrics that I believe you denounce unjustifiably.
Adam
Hello Adam,
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting your thoughts here.
Rather than rehash old conversations, I can only suggest that you read the articles linked in the comments above entitled: "Our God IS a God of Love" and "Jesus is NOT a Friend to Sinners". Upon doing so, you will understand why we are saying that God is not a friend to sinners and what God's attitude is towards the unGodly.
You say that God loves everyone who "comes to Him". That is not the premise of the song at all. Nowhere does Gungor assert that we must "come to God", repent, turn or any such thing. Further, once a sinner does "come to Him" they are no longer what they were (lesbian, terrorist, etc).
Gungor doesn't say that their worship is a means to the end of praising God. Rather, they state that their music is a means to an end of "becoming fully engaged in the world".
Neither does Gungor mention "Jesus" even once in the song.
When Paul says that He becomes all things in order to win some, He is not speaking of partaking of idolatry, misrepresenting Scripture, or dressing "God" up as a transvestite. He is speaking of decreasing himself so as to be a servant to those who don't believe; not perverting the Gospel so as not to offend those who need to repent (verse 19).
Trying to "show love" apart from seeking the heart of God in a matter merely leaves one with a wishy-washy Gospel that is powerless to save. Instead of trying to "show" love, why not seek to be transformed into the image of love by obeying God's commands? There is no "love" apart from God's truths.
saying "we are all sinners" is false??
ReplyDeleteromans 3:23 - for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
if He wasn't a friend to me (yes, I AM a sinner), then i wouldn't have any hope of a future with Him. i AM a sinner - i'm a sinner saved by grace. and He HAS made a beautiful thing out of me.
Hello Heather,
ReplyDeleteYes, saying, "we are all sinners" IS false and unbiblical.
The Scripture you quotes merely states that all have sinnED, not that all are sinnERS.
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." I Peter 4:1-2
Never once does God call someone who has been saved a sinner.
If you are still what you were before He saved you - namely a sinner - then He has not made a beautiful thing out of you at all. That is a religious delusion. When we truly come to know Christ, He changes us from what we were and we become a new creature in Him.
Whom the Son sets free is truly free indeed.
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness...But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." Romans 6:18, 22
Sin is Past
In the two quotes you have listed, I believe you take stuff out of context and add your own interpretation. Maybe you misunderstood what they were writing or didn't see it their way. Just because they welcome all people into their congregation does not mean the define all those people as Christians. It means they have asked them to enter in and meet with Jesus. They must still repent and accept Jesus. Your quote from their site neither confirms or denies that this happens. In fact they hope that everyone will come to love and embrace the story of Jesus. To me this means they accept Jesus into their hearts, which involves repentance. Just because they don't outline it step by step doesn't mean that isn't what they want to happen. Jesus met with sinners where they were at. He didn't expect them to come to Him in a chapel or temple. He drew them out. He changed them because He loved them, not because He condemned them.
ReplyDeleteAs for worship, what is more pleasing to God, singing a song He might like, or going out and taking care of widows, the sick and the fatherless. Remember that religion, true religion is worship. And James tells us in James 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." This is what Gungor is advocating.
God is not a white man. He is not a man at all. By defining Him as such we have put God in a box and confined Him. God is infinite. He is beyond our understanding. Can you tell me that any of us really has God all figured out?
The video is meant to have some humor to it. Do you think God doesn't enjoy humor? I'm not sure He does or doesn't, but I find it interesting that He gave us laughter.
Gungor is not asking you drop your beliefs. They are not asking you to run from God. They are asking you to examine your relationship with God and see if you have put Him in a box. God doesn't fit in a box.
While Gungor may not fit you theologically, and all their songs may not be theologically sound, at least they are challenging the establishment and reintroducing people to the mystery of God. And, if you were to only listen to music that was "theologically" sound, you would be stuck listening to a scant few songs.
Hello Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNot once do you present yourself as a witness for Christ, and perhaps that is fitting as you seem to be be more concerned about being a witness for Gungor.
The truths of God are not subject to such things as your/my opinion, your/my preference, your/my perceptions, or your/my beliefs. One either acknowledges, submits to, and upholds the truths of God's word or one denies them. I am not speaking of complete perfection in knowledge; I am speaking of honoring that which is true and rejecting that which is false.
God "fits" exactly where He says He does for He alone can define His character, personality, power, and righteousness. If we define Him otherwise, we simply make of ourselves idolators.
To you, it may mean nothing if "worship" music is not biblically sound, but any Jesus such leads people to is certainly not the Son of God (II Cor. 11:4).
It may be surprising for you, but worship is not about what we like or giving us variety in terms of what we want to hear. Worship is about what glorifies the Lord.
When we define God according to our own understanding and our own views, then we have made for ourselves an idol, projecting our own selves to be god by creating one after our own image/likeness.
Get to know the Lord and do not worry about presentations of men. Jesus is more than able to lead you into all truth by His Holy Spirit. Then you will not be deceived into false presentations of Christ meant to deny the truths of the Gospel.
I am the previous anonymous whom you said was "a witness of Gungor". Discussing with you is pointless. You come in assuming that your answer is the only proper answer and that others can't possibly have a differing opinion. You took much of what I said completely out of context, which seems to be a habit of yours.
ReplyDeleteNote, I never said worship music shouldn't be Biblically sound, I said "theologically" sound. Meaning you have limited worship music to only what fits into your theological beliefs. Do you honestly think your theology follows completely that which is defined in the Bible.
Tell me, are you Weslyan, Calvanist, Catholic or other? And, if you are one, do you believe the others are wrong and thus will not be in heaven?
And I am stopping here, before you decidedly take anymore of what I say out of context. Just know, I am a Christ follower. I believe in God, have repented of my sins and have accepted Jesus as my savior. I try to live my life in a way that pleases God. Sometimes I make mistakes, but when I recognize them, I repent of them also. I believe I am going to heaven when I die.
Oh, and one more thing, not only do I listen to Gungor, but I listen to Project 86, Red, Disciple, Plumb, Living Sacrifice, Pillar, Megadeth, Metallica, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles and countless other Christian and secular bands. But, I'm guessing because not all of them fit your theology, I shouldn't be listening to them and as such am probably going to hell.
And yet, as a Christian, I believe I am still going to heaven.
Hello again Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteActually I "come in assuming" that any professing Christian will attempt to establish what is true based upon the word of God (not man's understanding). That is what is lacking in your comments.
Being a follower of Christ is not about what you/I believe or what you/I understand. It is about what is the truth and what is not. As long as people pretend that there is no "truth" available to man, but merely individual "theological perspectives" about God, then there will continue to be a mass following of those who claim Him, but really don't know Him (Matthew 7:21-23).
The only thing which is theologically sound is that which is Scripturally sound. And to be clear, it is you who have asserted that Gungor's music is not all theologically sound and that a Christians variety in music is more important than listening to only that which is sound.
"Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them." Ezekiel 22:26
"And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean." Ezekiel 44:23
Your very words reveal the issue at hand for you. Not only can you not discern the difference between the holy and the profane, but you seem to be ignorant of the need to discern such a difference.
You recap how you have become a Christian, but have you become a new creation? Have you been born again? Have you been given the mind of Christ and a heart after God's own heart? I can tell you with certainty that God does not interact with that which is profane...and neither do His people.
I have never told another what they should or should not listen to. Each is able to do as they please; such is free will. Simply don't be misled that engaging in the profane (even when it is masquerading as "Christian") is such a little matter in God's eyes.
"What say I then? That the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." I Cor. 10:19-21
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
ReplyDeleteAnd he loves everyone. (John 3:16)
If this is redefining Christianity, then I don't know what Christianity is. And might not want a part of it.
Hello Charismanglican,
ReplyDeleteMaybe you don't know what Christianity is, and maybe you don't actually want to be a part of it. However, the issue here is not whether "God is love" or whether God has poured His love on all humanity. The issue is what is the true message of the Gospel, and it is certainly not what what Gungor presents in that song.
God is love, but that same love will send one to Hell if he/she doesn't repent (Matthew 10:28).
God is love, yet He is separate from sinners (Hebrew 7:26).
God is love, however he has no fellowship with darkness (I John 1:6).
"Love" the way man defines it is often so defiled, that this perversion of "love" leads to an unbiblical and corrupt idol they call "God".
Funny how - although Jesus knew that God is love - that was never the focus of His message to mankind. This is because the problem with man is not that He doesn't know about God's love, but that he prefers darkness rather than light...and such remains man's problem today.
Repent and Believe
I can't believe I'm going to weigh in on this discussion, but here goes. First of all, Gungor is an artist and as such he is pointing out one truth about God, not presenting a complete theology. I concede that some parts of the video misconstrue what love is, but it is true that God is love and loves everyone. "He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." The message may be incomplete, but it is true. You could have a similar problem with an individual psalm or other isolated scripture. I really don't see any individual lines you can take issue with.
ReplyDeleteI've seen the video multiple times and any connection with transvestites or cross dressing is ridiculous. The video is simply presenting different stereotype ways people picture God. In Bible times men wore robes; they weren't cross dressing. The whole song and video is meant to humorously make a point: God is not made in our image ,but He loves us all. Of course the greatness of that love is only realized in the knowledge of our sin. "And such were some of you"
I never noticed the sckull and crossbones in their logo. Thanks for pointing it out. It always bothered me when I've seen it in artwork because it represents death and we have "life", but it makes perfect sense to picture God using death and ugliness to create life and beauty. Love it. "He turned the desert into pools of water, the parched ground into flowing springs" Ps. 107:35.
Hi Mike,
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with singing about one attribute of God. However, when that attribute is perverted to be misleading and unbiblical, it is a lie.
The purpose of a music video is to expound upon the intent, motivation, and message of a song. If the message of the video is "misconstrued", it is precisely because the song's message is in error. In this video, Gungor is telling you exactly what they mean when they say that "God is love"; we can choose to take them for their word or pretend it doesn't matter.
We know that God is love (I John 4:8), but not one Scripture says that God loves "everyone" as you state.
God, by an act of His will, has chosen to show Himself - including His love - to all mankind (Romans 1:20). This is seen not only in Matthew 5:44-48, but in John 3:16. However, such does not speak to a personal/intimate affection for each individual man/woman.
Scripture says that God hates those who do iniquity.
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5:5
"The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." Psalm 11:5
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." Proverbs 6:16-19
So God's love shown to the wicked does not preclude His "hatred" for, and judgment of, the same.
It is deceitful to mislead unbelievers into thinking that they already have the "fullness" of what even you acknowledge they have not yet received.
It is deceptive to purport that sinners are not separated from God and that His wrath is not abiding on them continually (Psalm 7:11; John 3:36).
I agree that connecting God with transvestites and cross-dressers is ridiculous; and so is any attempt to justify such abominations.
When death is transformed into life - which can only happen by the power of God - it is indeed a beautiful thing. But when death is masquerading as life, it is even the more deadly.
"...If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:23b
All I am going to say is that you are the "my way is right and you with a different interpretation of scripture are wrong" kind of Christian who drives seekers away. You don't discuss you fire off your interpretation of scripture and condemn those who don't follow you to the letter.
ReplyDeleteHello Anonymous,
ReplyDelete"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." II Peter 1:20
I cannot think of one time when the disciples of Christ sat down and pondered each other's interpretation of Scripture. Yet today, that seems to be the most to which many Christians aspire.
Since when did being a Christian mean receiving everyone's interpretation versus seeking and speaking the truth? God certainly speaks his truths through man, but when our eyes can only see on the horizontal level, we falsely assume that all "interpretations" are valid.
Do I have a monopoly on truth or even all of it? Absolutely not! Yet, like the disciples, I know that when something is at odds with Scripture it is a lie.
I have condemned no one, but if it is clear that I am unwavering about all truth being established on God's word, all I can say is, "Well and good."
And don't be fooled. People do not turn away from God because of others. They do so because they are not through with sin. Those who truly seek after righteousness verily shall be filled; nor will they be deterred.
You appear to be misinformed on the meaning of the song sir (or Ma'm). I am not sure if I could explain it to you and I am pretty sure I could not convince you otherwise, but here goes a simple explanation of one thing you have gotten wrong and is easy to explain: the album art. The album is called "Beautiful things" in said album the singer says "You make beautiful things out of the dust...out of us" and "could all thats lost really be found". The art goes along with this theme. Beautiful flowers are made out of the disgusting tools man uses to kill and dominate one another. The art and the song says "have faith all things will be made beautiful in time, God can change the world and you". I tell you with confidence: the lost really can be found.
ReplyDeleteHello Michael,
ReplyDeleteThanks for responding. I understand your point; it has been raised above by another poster.
However, while the sentiment sounds wonderful, is it Biblical? Does God make darkness beautiful or does He transform darkness into light? Does God make death beautiful or does he conquer death with life?
The modern Christian movement (including much of CCM) would have one to believe that God does the former. The modern churchworld promotes that God is making the "world" beautiful (or sanctifying it). This way they can justify being "of the world" instead of being crucified to Christ from the world (they are the enemies of the cross of Christ).
Will "all things" be made beautiful in time, including the world??? Certainly not. This world will be burned up and replaced with a new Heaven and a new earth (II Peter 3:10-12; Rev. 21:1).
God is not making these old, dead things beautiful; He is replacing them with newness of life. These old things will pass away, not be beautified.
A failure to understand this is a failure to understand even the goal of the Gospel message. The Gospel is not sent to beautify the old man, but to crucify him. This is why we have to be born again, to die to one life in order to get another.
They appear to be borrowing from Ecclesiastes 3:11, which states:
"He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end."
This refers to God's creative sovereignty and providence in that what He does is always perfect, good, beautiful, appropriate; even when man doesn't understand. It is not a proclamation that God is redeeming the world (or even all the "lost" things in it).
Sir, the issues with this song are many, even more than what is cited above. I pray that you look at this from a Biblical viewpoint to seek God's views in these areas. It is not about my impressions, for who cares about that? Yet what does God have to say in the matter?
Thank You
Gods love is quite different than Gods approval of our actions and lifestyle. Gods love is rooted in redemption of sin not approval of sin
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
DeleteThat is very true! If God's love was the same of His approval, then Jesus never would have died for us; for when He did, we were His enemies.
However, neither is God's love a protection from Hell. Rather, we must turn in faith to Jesus Christ and be born again by His Spirit to follow Him.
Thank you for adding those comments.
Following up on a previous post by Heather, to which LDM replied:
ReplyDelete"The Scripture you quotes merely states that all have sinnED, not that all are sinnERS"
So... the folks at LDM got saved and haven't done anything wrong since??? I find that rather impressive. I still sin, therefore I am a sinner in need of forgiveness.
If you are just a sinner, then you should probably read the following:
DeleteJust A Sinner.
Touchy feely fluff. Yes we all know God loves us but that does not mean God doesn't have an idea of how to properly relate to Him and to each other. Only a person with no vested interest in God and pleasing him could have made that video. Adolescent understanding of God. Do we know that God is ecumenical? Where do we find evidence for this. Who gives the writer of this song the authority to speak for what God is? Needs to be fleshed out.
ReplyDeleteDear person,
ReplyDeleteI think that you are taking Gungor the wrong way. As for the sculls, they are flowers made of sculls because God makes beautiful things out of things that were ugly (metaphorically), as explained in their song “beautiful things”. Gungor has never said that Jesus is not God; they hope that through their example people will come to love Jesus Christ because of all He has done. They are not accepting all beliefs and lifestyles, but following Jesus’ example of reaching out to those who are lost. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors; he did not say it is ok to be immoral and dishonest, but he showed them love and forgiveness. As Christians it is our job to love everyone, and leave the judging to God. Gungor is not trying to make people become engaged in the “world” as in “sin”, but leaving worship ready to make a change in the world and evangelize. Back to their song, the message is “God is love and he loves everyone” which is true; “for God so loved the world…” in Greek, the word used is kosmos which means universe, world, humanity; God loves everyone. I seems as though you are twisting Gungor’s words to make and argument. Is it necessary to argue over whether candy is good for you? Gungor does not believe God is “one with cross-dressers and transvestites” they are actually saying that God is not a man, he is way above us. They are not saying there are many ways to access Him; they are saying God is not owned by religion; which is true, saying otherwise is like saying that what your church says is more important than what God says, he is not owned by your church or denomination. They are not even saying Jesus is a friend to sinners, the song says that he loves them, which is more than being a friend. However, Jesus was a friend to sinners, the prostitute, Samaritan woman, tax collectors, me. Gungor is NOT saying that embracing deeds of evil and darkness is good at all.
Frankly, reading through your post made me sad. The reason I follow Jesus today, is because he showed me how much he loves me even when I mess up. God is love. It seems like you are trying pick out little things to make an argument about Gungor, but you are taking it all wrong. Either way, God knows, so ask him, but next time, maybe ask him before you totally smash your brother in Christ.
I’ll pray for you,
-Dan
Hi Dan,
DeleteNo one who deliberately leads people away from Jesus Christ is my "brother" (Luke 11:23). Are you sure you want to defend & justify one who has never come to know Jesus Christ personally, but can only speak about Him from a remote and "intellectual" perspective? One who believes there is no such thing as "truth" and that it is not possible to really know God:
For the Doubters:
"Is there a God, an afterlife, a direction to the universe? I don’t know...There is really no way to objectively “know” anything. It all comes through our subjective lenses....Jesus is AT LEAST the idea of a man so connected to God that he was called the Son of God and the largest religious movement in human history is centered around his teachings; he was very likely a real person. EVEN IF this is all Jesus is, following his teachings can promote peace, empathy, and genuine morality...HOLY @#$#!!...This argument basically “proves” that even when everything gets deconstructed to the very least (God as a word for our subjective experience of the natural forces that create and sustain the universe)."
This is exactly why all that Gungor can promote is the "story of Jesus" and not Jesus Christ Himself. Salvation is found by being "in Christ" not just pondering about the esthetics of Christ's "story". Can Gungor come to know Christ? Absolutely! God desires him to come to know Him. However, until that happens, he is by no means equipped to speak or sing about who God is.
As to the other statements, I can only recommend the following:
The God of Love
God's Unconditional Love
Who is Supposed to Judge
The word of God is the foundation for all truth, and Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6). We cannot possess one without the other.